We Lived in Fear of the Next Fight. Until We Learned This

Marriage problems rarely begin with the issue being argued about. In this episode, we unpack why conflict escalates, how pride and past wounds quietly shape our reactions, and the simple communication practices that help couples repair faster, reconnect deeper, and stop seeing each other as the enemy.

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Transcript

Welcome And Why Coaching Matters

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Welcome to Hey Julia Woods Podcast. I'm your host, Julia Woods, founder of Beautiful Outcome, a coaching company focused on helping couples learn to see and understand each other, even in the most difficult conversations. On my podcast, I will share with you the real and raw of the messiness and amazingness of marriage. I'll share with you aspects of my relationship and the couples I coach in a way that you can see yourself and find the tools that you need to build the marriage you long for. Welcome to another episode of Hey Julia Woods. I am excited, as always, for you guys to get to connect with this couple that I'm interviewing today. It is John and Kathy. They've been married 13 years. They live on the East Coast in Maryland and have four little ones ranging from two to 11 years old. And they have just recently attended Breakthrough. And welcome John and Kathy.

SPEAKER_00 1:00

Thank you. We're happy to be here. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 1:03

Yes. So I got the pleasure of meeting you guys in April when you attended the most recent breakthrough. And I just loved you guys from the first look. Like you two were engaged. You were you were there for your first time and you were sitting close to the front and you were leaning in the whole weekend. So I am excited to get to know you with the audience in our conversation. Welcome to another episode of Hey Julia Woods. I am so excited to have our returning guest, Aaron and Jen, who have been on the podcast before. And yet I just love them and love who they are and really wanted to get a newer expression of kind of their journey. And for some of you that don't want to go back years in the podcast, you'll get to get experience them. So Aaron and Jen are busy people raising three children, each running businesses, and they've been married 18 years. And welcome, Erin and Jen.

SPEAKER_00 2:19

Glad

Meet Aaron And Jen Again

SPEAKER_00 2:20

to be here.

SPEAKER_02 2:23

Yes. So let's just jump in. And while you've been on before, this is a different approach than I took the last time we chatted. So I just would love for you to share with people what brought you to decide you wanted and needed to get some support and ultimately reach out to me at that time for coaching and then began to carry into attending breakthrough.

SPEAKER_00 2:46

I I think necessity. We had reached a relationship, a point in our relationship where we our communication when it went poorly, went really poorly. And we just needed help. Jen, Jen had continually asked to that we get help. And I, in my pride, didn't want to get help. So finally I agreed to that if that's something was important to her, that I would be along for her getting help for her, you know.

SPEAKER_02 3:15

Can you expand on that a little bit, Erin? What were you telling yourself that brought you to resist that request from Jen to get help?

SPEAKER_00 3:24

Yeah, I don't know why it's such a strong thing for me, but it definitely is that I'm the kind of person that helps people. I don't need help or I don't want help. Whatever, whatever that that thing is, I it's definitely a pride and ego, probably a lack of humility or self-defense mechanism that doesn't want to be seen as weak. And if you ask for help, then that means you're weak. Or at least that's what I told myself.

SPEAKER_02 3:52

Yeah. I can imagine why you didn't want to reach out if that's what you thought was true.

SPEAKER_01 3:56

But he was willing to admit that I was weak. So he was like, okay, fine. Like if you really need help, like I guess I'll at least watch you go get help. Um help you. Yeah, I'll help you help yourself. Um and it's actually really funny. My one of my favorite, like very quick stories is that we actually saw another counselor very briefly before you. And I was so excited because I was like, finally, like Arian was like willing to go to this counselor, like, we're gonna get the help we need. I can't wait. And so I have prepared a short treatise to explain to this marriage counselor and who we've never met before. And I'm like, I like lay it all out. And it's like, I mean, you I was expecting applause at the end, like violence, like some level of like, oh wow, like wow, I can see like clearly. And this man, this very kind man, I'm sure, who I will have forever hate for the rest of my life, was like, he like, I finished talking and he like looks over at Aaron and he goes, Wow, she's got a lot of words,

When Asking For Help Feels Weak

SPEAKER_01 4:55

doesn't she? And I was like, This is it, like this is the help I've been looking for all of a sudden. He like handed us two books, you know, and like was like, Okay, like you should read these. Like, here's the love languages, you know. Yeah, this will help. And it was I was so disappointed because I was like, Okay. And I think a lot of people have this experience of like you talk to a counselor and you're like, okay, this is gonna be this is gonna fix everything. We really need help. And then it goes badly. And then I mean, I think it was years later that it took for us to like try again because I was so kind of disillusioned, and Aaron was like, Yeah, that wasn't really helpful, was it? Like um, so it really took, and I think we heard, I heard you counsel someone else. And I was like, This is what I was looking for was like someone who was very honest and helped us be honest about like what we were struggling with and really take a look at the things and get tools for communication because we are very smart, opinionated, capable people who win in conflict are utter idiots, like cannot communicate. And and we I communicate for a living. And it's no accident that God put me with one person on earth who I cannot communicate with, right? That is like for sanctification and his will to be done. So it was very much important for us to learn these tools. And I was very grateful when Aaron was like, okay, fine, like we can try again. And we contacted you.

SPEAKER_02 6:17

Yeah, I love it. And you know, it's interesting to me. I know that a common term within the coaching therapy world is that coaches and therapists help people. It is like fingernails on a chalkboard to me. I don't help people, I simply stand with people and witness, give them a safe space to witness their stories and to witness what they're telling themselves and how that's taking them towards what they want or away from it. And so at best, I'm a guide. And I don't think people actually need help. It's that I'm willing to say, I'm a little off kilter and struggling to get where I want. And would you be willing to help me see how I'm off and what is needed to get back on course to where I want to go? And so I'm grateful to have gotten to get to walk with you guys and and be that. And I learn just as much from you guys as you guys do from me. So I'm glad you worked through those stories and decided to to reach out. So I love what you said, Jen, about we become utter idiots in conflict. Boy, do I resonate with that. So can you tell me a little more? Can you tell me about what being idiots looked like? What where were you off course? What was happening in your conflicts?

SPEAKER_01 7:43

Oh, in so many ways. Yeah. I mean, we I feel like we were seldom on course. I think it's very interesting. And I think you noted this early on when we started working to you together with you, that our communication styles are just are very different. I'm sure like anyone listening to this can relate, right? And and it's typically like you have we always identify in other couples. It's like, oh, I'm the you and you're this guy, like that person, you're this person. And it's really common. And I think one of the biggest lies ever Satan ever tells us is that we're the only ones. And I think we believe that for a very long time because most people don't talk about their marriage problems. And so you go out with a bunch of couples and everyone seems great. And we seemed great, you know, and people were like, wow, you guys are amazing, and we have a perfect little family. And then when we did have conflict, it was so disheartening because it felt like we were deeply and utterly broken in some way. And, you know, Aaron's parents didn't fight like we did. My parents fought very differently, and my dad had left. And so we didn't really have an example of how

The Counselor Visit That Went Sideways

SPEAKER_01 8:45

communication was supposed to look. All we knew that what we were doing was like very bad and wrong and was not working, was not effective. And, you know, I tend to over-communicate. I will say the same thing 10 different ways because my desire is that I want Aaron to say, like, oh, I get it now. Wait a second. Like, I see where you're coming from. But what that's really code for is like I wanted him to tell me I was right. You know, I wanted him to say, like, oh, I get it. Like, you're right. I understand now. Like, I wanted that light bulb moment. And the more I over-communicated, the more Aaron would shut down and would like double down on what he thought. It was like the least effective thing that I could do was to keep pushing and keep hoping that he would get it. And so I would do that. And Aaron would would stonewall, you know, he'd be like, nope, disagree. Like, you're not going to convince me. And we'd have this blow-up fight, and then we'd end up with just like separation for days often. Like there would just be like entire weeks of time lost where we were both kind of licking our wounds and soaking in self-pity. What would how would you describe it?

SPEAKER_00 9:51

Yeah, I'd say we we it we got into these arguments where neither of us was humble, humble or willing to admit or listen to the other person, and then we got frustrated by it. And and that frustration would grow, and you would communicate a lot of frustration, and I would be rigid in my attempt at good behavior for a while until I basically got really frustrated by trying to fix Jen. And then I got frustrated by my own anger and my own, you know, bad behavior. And I, you know, I probably a good example is I would, you know, I would just get up and leave at some point and be like, this is this is ridiculous. I'm just getting out of here. But then Jen would start texting me. And so there was a period of time in in the worst moments where I would just I would block Jen because there would just be like an endless slew of anger and words. So many words. And I just I I couldn't, I told myself I couldn't handle it. So I would, I would block Jen until I calmed down because I I didn't want to see all that because I couldn't handle it. So anyway, that was like one of those bad habits that I got into. I was like, great, Jen can't control herself. I'll control her by turning her off.

SPEAKER_01 11:02

Yeah. Which made me furious. You know, I was just furious that like you don't you don't care about me. You won't, you won't listen to me. Like I'm trying to talk to you and you won't hear me, you know. Yeah. So it really set off some deep fears that I had about like not being heard, not like being important, not like no one caring enough, you know, to hear what I had to say, my perspective not mattering. So that just that war began to metastasize over the course of our relationship and resentment and distance was just building and building.

SPEAKER_02 11:32

Yeah. And it makes so much sense because so often in conflicts, what's gotten triggered is the ghosts, the unprocessed emotions from the past. So it makes a lot of sense in that for you, Jen. It you were, you were in essence trying to communicate to your dad in a way that, like, I never got to say these words. So I have all these things to say, and I need you to help heal that wound of all those years you weren't there to hear what I was needing and wanting to say to you. And we wind up, we think we're fighting with our spouse, but we're actually fighting with the ghost of where those deep wounds began.

SPEAKER_01 12:13

Yeah, it felt it felt so hopeless. And I think that that's what I felt so out of control and so powerless. And I think like I am a powerful person, you know, I'm a confident person. I can like make things and create things and accomplish things. And so being in this feeling of total powerlessness, now I'm able to be like, the Lord is in charge. Like Aaron is he will work in Aaron's heart. He's working in my heart. Like this is all going to be okay. But at the time, it just felt totally hopeless, totally powerless over and over again. Um, and it created just this feeling of despair, you know, of like, okay, it's never gonna get better. Like this is just always

Their Conflict Cycle: Push And Shut Down

SPEAKER_01 12:55

gonna be happening unless we get help.

SPEAKER_02 12:57

Yeah. What you're describing is you found an anchor that helps you zoom out because when it's those traumatic responses, when it's those ghosts we're fighting with, it's like that scene in the movie where it's the camera zoomed in and it's intense, and you know something horrible is about to happen and the music is, you know, pounding. That's what it feels like in those moments. But we need something to help us pull the camera angle out to turn the music down, to be like, okay, there's something going on for them, there's something going on for me. Can we get clear on what that is and share that in a way that we can help create connection, not make each other the enemy?

SPEAKER_01 13:41

Well, and I think that's something that happened very early on when we coached with you. And it was kind of this transformative moment for me because you asked, you asked me to like come up with five things. Like it was like a list of five things. Like, here's a situation, here are five things about that. And you asked me to like list the things, the five things. And then Aaron was supposed to recap like what I had said, like what he heard me say. And it was fascinating because I listed these five things. I think that they're very eloquent. I felt like I expressed myself very well. You asked Aaron what he heard me say. He heard like the first point and only heard part of it. And I was like, that's it. And it wasn't bad and wrong. It wasn't like, oh, Aaron wasn't listening. He was trying really hard to listen. And I had just said so much and was so overwhelming him with like all the information and all of my thoughts that like it was completely counterproductive, right? So, like you just said, it's really a communication tool of like, I'm gonna give some thought to this, right? And then that's one of the things that's been so helpful at breakthrough is it's like you give these guided little prompts of like, how here is what I'm hearing you say. This is how it makes me feel when. And it kind of gives you that tool of like, I need to just say less and give more thought to what it is that I'm trying to express.

SPEAKER_02 14:59

Yeah. So you guys, there's a lot that you have said that I think a lot of people will resonate with. And I don't want to just breeze over that. All right. So, Aaron, you were saying things like, I would get lost in self-pity. And Jen, you were talking about I felt powerless. And then Jen, Aaron, you were talking about how we lacked the humility. Or for you, Jen, it was like I wasn't even clear in what I was communicating. So let's slow that down. And you've made you made a really clear visual, basically. I mean, I was tracking with you on how conversations would go before you began doing the work on yourself. And would each of you share like, what is one way of being? I know it's easy to call them tools, but it's really about a way of being that we choose to help get a hold of what we're up to. Because as human beings, we're villain and hero. And our villain loves disconnection, our villain loves loneliness, our villain loves to make the other person the problem. And our hero is fighting for connection. So ultimately, that's what's happening in our conflicts is that evil part of us that wants to be in control of the world and in control of the marriage, and the the hero that longs for deep intimacy and connection and healing are at war. So, what is like one of your favorite go-to things that you apply when that battle starts to raise and you're not hearing each other and you're wanting things your way and stuck in self-pity? Can you share with us a practical tool?

SPEAKER_00 16:46

Yeah. So the one of the things that works so well for us in breakthrough is the fact that we're staying in a specific topic for a weekend. And in and one of the things we're asked to do at breakthrough is pick attention, which is not hard for Jen and I to do because we have some some regular things we fight about. You know, you know, there's there's main things that kind of come back and they become attention over and over again. So anyway, for my for me, I'm trying to avoid that and get out of that conversation a lot of times. So I'm like, I want it to be good. I don't want it to be bad. And it feels bad when we talk about it often because we realize how far apart we feel, often because it's like bitterness and anger and and uh avoidance of the tension versus being in the tension. So at breakthrough, we're we're encouraged to go again. And and in fact, you almost have to go again because it's an entire weekend. So in the busyness of our lives, careers and kids and school, there's so many things we kind of like go in and out of this tension on a regular basis where we talk about it for 10 minutes, come back to it, get tired of talking about it, or get frustrated by how it feels, and then we talk about it two months later or how it works. At breakthrough, we're like really focused. And we want that's the whole point. We invested in the

Fighting Old Wounds In New Arguments

SPEAKER_00 18:10

weekend, we're there together, and and we're literally talking about it in a whole bunch of different ways for a whole weekend. And that has been so powerful for us because it forces us to stay on track and and and really encourages us to keep showing up versus getting frustrated and storming out or you know, just being lazy and wanting to have fun. Yeah. A successful weekend looks like actually making progress. And I think that's one of the things Jen and I are similar in is that we like we're high capacity people who like to accomplish something. So when we're giving the right tools and encouraged in those tools, and then when we see people around us being humble and working really hard, it's really hard to not ourselves be in it. I think it's shoulder to shoulder, we're in the trenches, and it's exciting and encouraging. And I think, yeah, to that point, I said uh going again was one of the biggest tools. I think the second thing would be humility. And I think in when we first started calls with you, Julia, your humility is is was the thing that made me want to have more calls because I could see how powerful it was in your life in seeing yourself for who you really were and wanting to grow and not living in the pretense. I could see for myself that I had so many pretenses of strength that were not true, and that I had a lot of room to grow. And and and the truth is I still do. So many. And and Jen inferenced early, earlier this like more successful situation now in a relationship. And that is true, but it's also equally true that the tensions do feel hard still. So that doesn't go away. It you know, there's just more opportunity for humility, but I think that's what's made it better is like being willing to face that humility sooner than later instead of resisting it to no end. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_02 20:07

Yeah, yeah. So what I hear you saying is that you really got you began to grow your capacity to have intentional conversations, even amidst a busy life of two businesses and three kids and you know, very creative people. You recognized that things needed more care and you know, more priority. Priority, yeah. And you began to realize how pride wasn't was blocking you from what you wanted and are developing the muscle of humility. And that's yeah, makes a huge difference in the conversations.

SPEAKER_01 20:51

Well, and I think the lie is that it's not, it's never gonna get better. You know, I think you said something to us early on that uh despair is when you think the reality you long for isn't possible for you. And I think that's where so many couples live in a constant state of despair, right? That this is just how it's going to be. There's not a better way. It can't get better. He's never gonna change. And so, how is my life ever going to improve? And that is the lie that keeps us trapped underneath like a comforter. You know, it's like really we're trapped in our own comfort because we are we're resisting discomfort. We don't want to do the things that are difficult and we get busy. And so that's where most people hide, where we could have hidden for the rest of our lives because we have young kids and we're busy and we're running businesses. We could have hidden in that busyness and that despair would have stayed with us. And then all of a sudden, we would have been 60 with our children gone, and we'd be like, oh no. And that's not what we wanted, right? That was not the generation of healing and the marriage that we want to give to our children. It was worth it's worth fighting for something else. And so I think the the ability to go again has been. Huge. And then the idea of like, who am I committed to be? Which is really that humility. And that's a question you've asked often is like, who am I committed to be? That has nothing to do with Aaron, right? Like, I cannot get off the hook if I ask the question, who am I committed to be? And Aaron cannot stay in self-pity if he says, Who am I committed to be? Right. Neither of us get to stay in where we are, where we're most comfortable, where we like to hide if we ask that question. And so I think that's something that I would just encourage the listeners that you have is like, when you are trapped in conflict, when you are despairing, really you have so much more ability than you think if you're willing to ask that question of like, who am I committed to be right now? What am I bringing to the table? And how can I go again and be the person that I'm not willing to be right now? That's a it's a powerful shift. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:53

Yeah. Jen, what

Breakthrough Skill: Go Again

SPEAKER_02 22:55

would you say is works for you about the breakthrough format?

SPEAKER_01 23:00

I think really, and this is something that, you know, really going to echo what Aaron just said. Number one, it's a guided conversation, right? And so there are kind of some key prompts that you've put a lot of considered thought into that are helping people navigate the conversations well. So they're neutral phrases, right? They're like questions. They promote curiosity. At my worst in conflict, I am not a curious person, right? I know everything. I have so much insight into Aaron's mind and his heart and his feelings. And I need to, I have no questions for him whatsoever. And so I think you do a good job of really guiding to like asking questions or what I make up is, or could this be asking questions, saying what you are tempted to believe instead of just making statements over and over, which is something I'm really bad at on my own, honestly. So the ability to also then have a very bad conversation, which we always do at breakthrough. There's always like two where I like leave so mad and I have to tell our small group, I'm so mad right now. Um, so the ability to have a really bad conversation and then like an hour later be like, okay, let's try again. You don't get to do that in normal life, right? You can, but it's hard. You're like, okay, I'm making breakfast and we had a bad conversation. Like in an hour, you're gonna be gone, right? So we're gonna table this conversation for four days and we're not gonna even remember why we're fighting and we're just gonna be pissed off for four days. That's kind of reality. So I think the ability to in an hour later, we're trying again. And that's, I think, really changed how we approach conflict at home as well. Because instead of like letting days pass, I think we've both gotten better at like, okay, that didn't go well, right? Like, let me try this again. I can hear how that sounded. Here's what I'm thinking. Like, does this resonate? And just immediately try again rather than like waiting days for it to blow over.

SPEAKER_02 24:56

Yeah. Yeah, I love that. So you guys went from you know, having conflicts that left you disconnected and angry and hurt for days and weeks to then gaining these new approaches of going again and being intentional and taking responsibility for who you're committed to be and humility, which is one of the most powerful ones. So, what what is it how is it different now? How what is the difference that this is making in your interactions and your day-to-day life?

SPEAKER_01 25:36

Well, I think it's very tempting to be like, ta-da, you know, like, oh wow. No, we just had a giant fight last week. You know, like this, it's still, it still comes up for us. And like we will probably always have conflict because marriage is sanctification. And for us, like there, this is the best way for God to like mold us and shape us is to give each other someone else who's like, I'm not buying what you are selling, right? That has been a gift, right? And I can view it that way, or I can be, I can resent it as an intruder, or I can welcome as a friend. And so something that I think we've realized is like our goal is not no conflict, right? Our goal is not like, let's just have eternal peace and kumbaya and like let's call that intimacy. No, that's settling for a level of like absence of connection. And when you're in close connection, as we are, you're going to have conflict. That's the price you pay for intimacy with a person you're close to, is you're going to get hurt, you're going to get angry, you're going to be upset. But how do we do that and repair well? And so I think that's really been the change is I think we've gotten better at repairing, not maybe avoiding conflict to begin with, because again, we're both idiots. We say stupid things all the time. But how do we repair well and faster instead of letting it mismetastasize? I don't know what you said.

SPEAKER_00 26:53

Yeah, I would agree. I I I definitely definitely have not made it, but the progress is definitely very marked. I would say, you know, in the worst moments that we talked about earlier years ago, you could see how the habits had gotten out of control and unmanageable and felt kind of scary. And I would say in to the other side now, we have built some really good habits and it makes you want to build them even more because they are powerful and they're good for us, they're good for our kids, they're good for our for whatever we're working on. But I think like the honesty that has come out of it has been hard, but also good. And it's still hard because we are a lot more honest with how we're feeling, and there's still still a lot more room to be honest about the fact that those are confessions of

Humility And Who I Commit To Be

SPEAKER_00 27:40

things that are more confessions than they are like, you know, honesty sometimes sounds like, oh, this is true. But I've come to realize that when you're when you're when you're confessing something, truth is is actually something that doesn't sound really good. It's like, hey, I'm like hurt that we didn't go out for our date like we planned on, or whatever the thing is that, you know, it's it's being honest, like that that hurt my feelings. And it doesn't always make you look good to admit something. But I I've been reading Renovation of the Heart by Dallas Willard, and he says something that really goes along well with your your feelings chart, and you've probably heard it before, but he says that feelings make good servants but terrible masters. And I think that's that's the thing that we've come to realize is how I was like in such denial that that that I had feelings, even to some extent. It's like, no, I'm I don't I'm fine, I'm great, I have a good attitude. You pick virtue and I'll I'll just check every single one of those things. And the denial is that complete, versus now it's like, no, I I am really struggling with, you know, guilt or hurt or anger, you know, I'm I'm really mad. So like being willing to admit that I'm mad has has has definitely helped Jen and I get to the root of something a lot quicker than like fighting about it for years and not even knowing what's going on.

SPEAKER_02 29:01

Yeah. Yeah, because it's vulnerable to express that I'm hurt, right? It's like, am I a kid? I got hurt over that. Like, what what's going on for me? But we work so hard to protect that vulnerability that that's a lot of what the chaos is. But when I can just confess, oh, I'm hurt. And here's why I'm hurt. This is the story I'm telling myself. All of a sudden the hurt dissipates and we connect because we're humans and we can have our feelings hurt in the same way. And when we're just honest about it, it makes it makes a whole lot more sense why I reacted the way I reacted and and all of that.

SPEAKER_01 29:38

So I don't know why we go through so much of life thinking like we're supposed to be fine, right? Like who lied to us and said, like you get a medal if you say that I'm fine when you're not fine? You know, like it what what are we what are we trying to protect? But I do think we're trying to protect something. And that's like an important thing to realize is like, why am I trying to protect this? Like, who does it serve for me to be dishonest about the fact that my feelings are hurt? You know, when it can be like no bad, no wrong, my feelings are hurt. Like it doesn't have to be your fault. It can just be like, I am admitting that I am sad about this. Yeah. And that can be a very freeing thing to be able to do. And it and it creates intimacy. If our if our best friend, when we're four, says, like, my feelings are hurt, you're like, oh no, I'm sorry. You, you know, you empathize with that person and you draw close to them. And we're so busy protecting that in marriage that we miss out on the intimacy that it can create.

SPEAKER_02 30:28

Yeah. Yeah. I think it's that we're trying to, we think that we're supposed to be perfect and to expose our weaknesses is humbling. And yet it's in exposing our weaknesses in that humility that we actually grow deep connection. So guys, thank you so much. Is there anything else you think would be valuable for someone listening who hasn't been to breakthrough or is, you know, struggling to work through conflicts, have recognized they have some pretty bad communication habits. Anything else you would say to them?

SPEAKER_00 31:06

Well, we definitely encourage going to breakthrough. We've been four times, and every single one of them has been extremely beneficial. I uh I told, I think I told you at one point, Julia, I I don't think I would have ever gone to breakthrough except that

Honest Feelings And Faster Repair

SPEAKER_00 31:20

you asked us to be group leaders. And I'm like, oh, you need my help. If you need my help, then of course I'll come. But I don't, I don't think I would have been able to get over that, you know, fear of like I I'm not the kind of person that needs to sit in a circle and you know talk about my feelings. I'm not that kind of person, nor do I want to be. And I'm really glad that God got me there because I have so many friends who have gone. You know, obviously Buddy and Jill who hosted our are dear friends, and we've gone with this angry between so many years. Yeah, brought all kinds of random people and close, close family. And it's it's it's been very powerful in our lives. And I I look forward to going again.

SPEAKER_01 32:02

Love it. Yeah. I would I would say like if you're thinking about it, do it. Right. Like you you probably, if you're listening to this and you have that like quirk in your heart of like, oh man, like we need this, you know, then it's it's worth this is a great first step. You are like among friends. It probably sounds more intimidating to like be in a group of people and like it sounds like group therapy, and you're like, wow, that sounds very intense. You're right. It is intense. But I do think that there is something so impactful about being shoulder to shoulder, which is with a bunch of people who are saying, like, hey, we're not perfect, we're willing to work on our marriages. And the thing that you're gonna realize immediately is like you're not bad, broken, or alone, right? Like you are not the only one. It doesn't matter how different someone is, they're probably fighting about the same thing you are. And you're gonna see yourself over and over and over. And so again, the lie is that like no one else is like this. Like this is just a secret thing that you struggle with. That is the furthest thing from the truth. And so stepping into the light and being like, okay, guys, like we're probably not perfect, we're not okay, is the most freeing choice that you'll ever make because that's when you're going to find the reality that can wait for you on the other side, which is like actual help, actual connection, and not settling for the level of despair that you've told yourself is normal.

SPEAKER_02 33:20

Yeah. Yeah. And I think that connects back so well is to that we become crazy people in the midst of conflicts. Like as human beings, you guys are great. There's nothing wrong with you. It's those wounds that get triggered that bring us to be those crazy people. That's like, okay, who I become in conflict, that's not okay. And I need some guidance in getting control, getting a hold of that crazy person that can come out of me in conflict. And so yeah. All right, guys. Thank you so much. So grateful

Breakthrough Invite And Marriage Growth Community

SPEAKER_02 33:55

for you. And thank you for sharing your story with our listeners. I am excited for them to connect to it. Same here. Thanks for having us.

SPEAKER_01 34:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:05

Anytime. I want to talk to you about something super exciting. It's a game changer, really. To have the relationship you long for, you must take responsibility for yourself and who you are being moment by moment. It's not about what your spouse needs to change. It's about you taking control of the only thing you can control, which is you. That's the truth that nobody's talking about when they talk about marriage. But I am inside the marriage growth community where I will help you take responsibility for your ability to lead conversations with your spouse, to love and connection, so you can have the marriage you dreamed of when you first fell in love. At the very first link in the show notes, you can grab my marriage growth community, and that's really going to help. I know that because it's based on the same principles I've used to coach this couple and hundreds of other couples to marriage success over the last nine years. So grab marriage growth community at the top of the show notes.