Good Cop Bad Cop Was Destroying our Connection

After 13 years of marriage and four kids under 11, John and Kathy thought they just had a "parenting problem" — until they realized parenting stress had turned them into opponents instead of teammates. In this episode, Julia Woods breaks down how this couple uncovered the fear hiding underneath John's anger and the emotional shutdown hiding underneath Kathy's silence, and the practical communication tools that got them working as a team again in just six weeks. If you've ever fought about the kids and ended up fighting about each other, this one's for you.

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Transcript

Welcome And Couple Introduction

SPEAKER_03 0:00

Welcome to Hey Julia Woods Podcast. I'm your host, Julia Woods, founder of Beautiful Outcome, a coaching company focused on helping couples learn to see and understand each other, even in the most difficult conversations. On my podcast, I will share with you the real and raw of the messiness and amazingness of marriage. I'll share with you aspects of my relationship and the couples I coach in a way that you can see yourself and find the tools that you need to build the marriage you long for. Welcome to another episode of Hey Julia Woods. I am excited, as always, for you guys to get to connect with this couple that I'm interviewing today. It is John and Kathy. They've been married 13 years. They live on the East Coast in Maryland and have four little ones ranging from two to 11 years old. And they have just recently attended Breakthrough and welcome John and Kathy.

SPEAKER_00 1:00

Thank you. We're happy to be here. Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 1:03

Yes. So I got the pleasure of meeting you guys in April when you attended the most recent breakthrough. And I um just loved you guys from the first look. Like you two were engaged. You were you were there for your first time and you were sitting close to the front and you were leaning in the whole weekend. So I am excited to get to know you with the audience in our conversation today. And so I'd

Why They Invested In Breakthrough

SPEAKER_03 1:32

love to start with just will you guys each share from your own perspective what brought you to decide to invest in your marriage by coming to Breakthrough?

SPEAKER_00 1:44

So you had come on my radar years ago, probably two years ago. Um I follow Caitlin James. And so through her social, I would see these weekends, and I'm like, man, that looks amazing. I want that for us. And um, so I always had like the tab up in my browser, no, like waiting for the right time. Uh, this past April, we just celebrated 13 years of marriage actually on the retreat weekend. And so it felt like a good excuse to be like, hey, let's go to this beautiful setting to focus on our marriage and finally do this retreat. And I had shown it to John along the way. It wasn't a surprise. So he sort of knew about it loosely. Um, but the timing was finally right uh to go. And so the topic was less of less of the the reasoning behind it. It was really the season of life that we were in.

SPEAKER_01 2:33

Yeah, yeah. And I would I would say so, um, Kathy and I, uh, since we've been married, um, we we've been married for 13 years, as you said. We've been together for 15. Um, we've had a lot of uh we've been very fast at uh going through the stages of marriage. We got through the honeymoon phase really quickly, we got into the fall apart stage really quickly. Um, and we've navigated some really difficult things through our marriage. Uh and um I think one of the things that, and I'll give her all the credit, you know, she brought up a long time ago was this idea of investing in ourselves uh a couple times a year. Uh and so that was either like taking a trip together, or because we've always traveled really well together, um, or doing some type of marriage retreat at our local church, or um, you know, just attending like a marriage group. Uh so this was one of the things she'd been talking about for a while. She brought it up to me. And of course, I'm, you know, any good husband is not gonna say no. So uh we we did it and uh we came. And it again, it's super close to us, only a couple hours, and uh it was just a great time. It was a great weekend, and uh I don't regret it at all.

SPEAKER_03 3:52

Awesome.

Fears And A Fast Start

SPEAKER_03 3:54

So what uh what fears did you have coming in?

SPEAKER_00 3:58

Um this is gonna sound so funny. Um your website tells me enough to have an idea of what's gonna happen, but not enough to actually know the specifics. And so for like two people that are type A's, like that was a little bit uncomfortable. It's like I sort of know what I'm getting into, but I don't. Um, and then John will probably laugh at this, but I was like, it says casual, but how casual? Like, like sweatpants casual or like business casual. And he's like, you're overthinking this tremendously. And so uh I would say, you know, we both kind of because we weren't in crisis, I wouldn't say we came in afraid. It was more of like, I don't quite know what I'm getting into.

SPEAKER_01 4:39

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I uh, you know, we came, we came with a very limited knowledge base, just what Kathy had read online and just through the website, um, and you know, reviews, uh, you know, word of mouth, social media about what the event was. Um, so I think we were very uh shocked, I'll say, when we got there the first night and and you jumped right into it. Uh and that was um, you know, that was very unexpected. Um and it definitely caught me off guard at first because I we went in there with, you know, kind of an understanding that we wanted to work through some issues that we were having that kind of related to just being parents and to raising four little human beings with distinct personalities. And like day one, hour one, minute one, we you jumped right into it and started talking about anger. And I was very thrown off at it, and I was like, oh man, did we like come to the wrong place? Like I don't know that this is what we're here for. Um and so it was it was definitely an experience that was um I think unexpected, but ultimately welcomed. And uh and I I can't say that I would have ever imagined uh what it would have been like just based on uh the the amount of media and marketing that you have out, like that it was going to be that impactful, you know.

SPEAKER_03 6:23

Yeah. Well, every couple, you know, one of the um if anyone's been listening long, you probably know the context of breakthrough is that each couple comes to breakthrough with attention that you want to break through because I've been to marriage events, I've been to marriage retreats, and you hear all these amazing speakers that seem like they have it all together, tell you how you need to do what you need to do and how you need to do it. And then you go home and you try and apply it, and it's like, what the heck, something's wrong with me, right? They're they're the perfect couple and I am a disaster. Um, and so I wanted to create something that was very hands-on. Like, if if we if I'm gonna give you some tools of how to use them, let's see how they work for you. Let's keep readjusting until they actually do work for you. So when you leave, you have tangible results that show you this actually works for you and your relationship. And so each couple comes in with a tension, a specific area of conflict that they want to break through. So, what was the area of tension that the two of you came in with?

Parenting Overwhelm Becomes Couple Conflict

SPEAKER_00 7:31

So, um, like you'll hear many times on this podcast, we've got four children aging ranging from two to 11. And um a friend pointed out recently that all of our kids are at different developmental stages and we feel that as parents. Um, and ultimately what that's created uh is just a lot of opportunity for arguing between John and I because we were overwhelmed by the tasks of parenting such distinct personalities at different ages and stages, and feeling like we're playing a dodgeball game a lot of the time. It's like, oh man, that one's climbing on a table while that one's having a preteen meltdown, and it's like who's doing what? And so I think there was just a lot of miscommunication that had started happening and a lot of misunderstanding, and also just like not showing up the way that we want to as parents in our value system. And so that was just compounding over time because there's never space to fully have a conversation because of everything I just told you.

SPEAKER_01 8:31

Somebody's little voices always chiming in, you know, and uh Kathy's absolutely right. It's it was a matter of we're we're taking on these four little humans to raise, and each one of them are completely different. Uh, and um I'm married to a vivacious and fearsome uh Hispanic woman who protects her children from all dangers, and at times that includes me. Uh and so it does cause tension. Uh it does cause tension. And uh mom uh wants to protect uh her babies from uh the bad things, and I'm trying to raise up little three little men, uh, and and we get into we get into some conflict sometimes, and we have some tension about that sometimes. And so it's one of those things where it wasn't necessarily a marriage issue for us. It wasn't an in our marriage issue, but it was our family issue. And it was our, I think our our hearts issue for each other and um for what our ultimately what our our combined goals are for our family.

SPEAKER_03 9:47

Yeah, yeah. And I think a lot of people can relate um to this, right? And I think, John, what you said was very profound that as we women, we're working to protect and nurture, and men get men in a way that women don't. And you're recognizing what really you gotta go after for the heart of a man to come alive. And that can look very different than what women uh think it ought to look like, right? And so um can you guys each share just a little bit more about like what was the ugly? Like, I think this is a this can be an ugly dance in a lot of couples' relationship. What did it look like for you guys?

SPEAKER_01 10:31

I'll uh I'll I'll start.

Harsh Discipline And Stonewalling Patterns

SPEAKER_01 10:33

Um sorry, baby, let me let me jump in. Um I so it it would be something as simple as um me seeing a lack of care or a lack of consideration from one of the boys. We we have three boys and uh and a baby girl. Um and so a lot of times the frustrations that I have are specifically with the boys, and and it's it's it's things that it's a lack of responsibility, it's a lack of accountability, it's a lack of, you know, and these are all words that I use as retired military. I they're drilled into my brain. Um and so it would get me very upset. Uh it would get me very heated very quickly. Um, because to me it is a it is a um it is a error in um becoming a man, right? Or or not error in becoming a man, but it it is a it is a stepping stone to becoming a man, to to being a good man, to being a a caretaker, a provider, a protector, uh, a lover, a fighter. Uh, and so I would be very harsh. Um, I could be very harsh, I can be very harsh. And uh mama's not having any of it. And so I would say with with pretty pretty regular, uh pretty good level of regularity, it would be I would be disciplining the boys or I would be correcting the boys and something, and Kathy would similarly be frustrated with the situation, but that frustration would turn back onto me because of my tone or my language or my directness. Uh, and so then we would end up in a fight because she didn't like how I was correcting the kids, even though she knew the kids had to be corrected too. And so I would say that that probably happened oh 80% of the time. Uh it would be about an 80-20 uh split where if there was some type of tension with the children, 80% of that time it would end up with a tension between us.

SPEAKER_00 12:49

Yeah, and I think John like summed it up pretty well. And I think the only thing I'd really add to that is um the emotional toll it took on me. You know, so it wasn't just like an isolated incident that, oh, dad was too harsh, you know. Again, his prior military really influences that communication style. But for me, it would wreck me for days emotionally when we miss the Marcus parents. Um because it goes back to family vision, values, um, even the relationship I hope to cultivate with our kids as they enter teenage years and eventually adults. You know, I'm thinking, how is this going to produce anything positive for us down the road? And so that was where that emotional really burden for me would sit heavy for days.

SPEAKER_03 13:38

Yeah. Yeah. And what was that like, Kathy? Like you say the emotional, it took an emotional toll for two days. How did that show up in the relationship? Was that just like isolation, tiptoeing around each other? What did it look like?

SPEAKER_00 13:52

Uh, I'm a stonewaller, the recovering stonewaller. I try to be very, I've become very aware of that through marriage. Um, someone can become a ghost to me very quickly when I'm upset. And it's not a good thing. John would always tell me in the beginning of our marriage, I'd rather you just scream at me for 30, 30 minutes and ignore me. Um, but it wasn't the way I was raised, right? I didn't grow up seeing that. So this is how I learned how to cope with hard emotions or not cope with them. Uh so I would say my primary way was just like the anger showed as complete silence and deflection. And um, it didn't move the needle forward in any positive way.

SPEAKER_03 14:32

Yeah, yeah. And yet I think what you're saying is so profound that you're imagining, like, oh no, dad's being in your mind too harsh, and you're seeing a catastrophized future coming towards you of my boys are going to never want to be with us or you know, whatever. Like, is that what it was like?

SPEAKER_00 14:54

That's exactly what I was thinking. Yeah. Like they're never gonna come back. I'm gonna, I'm gonna lose them because dad was too harsh.

SPEAKER_03 15:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:00

How as as we learned at the conference, or as we learned at the retreat, uh, Kathy is very good at future tripping. Uh and and so it's it's and I mean, she does she she has some validity in that. I come from a family that is, I was my dad was also military. Um, my brother's in the military, my grandfather was in the military. I I have generations and generations of service in my family. And um, you know, uh, we were raised in a very, very strict, very harsh, very abusive household. And so we don't live anywhere close to each other. My brother lives in Colorado, my sister lives in Chicago, uh, I live here, and until recently, um, my parents lived in Indiana, and I recently moved them out because I need to start taking care of them. But we we disassociated with each other. Uh, you know, we see each other at Christmas and holidays, and and I think that that a lot of that experience that I've lived, I don't obviously want to repeat, but I think it has also informed Kathy's fears and and her future projections if we don't do things differently.

SPEAKER_00 16:11

Yeah, I I come from a different background. I'm Colombian, and so up until my mom retired last year, we all live within five to 35 minutes of each other, you know, and we have our own set of things that we have to work through as a family as well. But closeness is not one of them. Proximity is not one of them.

SPEAKER_03 16:30

Yeah, and it's very evident what attracted the two, you know, the attracted the two of you to each other in the aspect of, you know, we talk about this in the retreat that we're we're all of us as humans are villain and hero, and our villains are attracted to each other and our heroes are attracted to each other. And so from a default future perspective, it makes sense that Kathy, you're gonna think you're gonna know the best way. Um, and yet, John, there is a heart to create something new. And so there's this powerful combination within the fear of discernment and wisdom with also the tendency to want to control what you're afraid is gonna happen. And to separate those two from each other, that takes some significant work. And you got four little ones going crazy all around you. So it makes sense that coming away for a weekend to just set in the tension of that is what's needed to actually find your road to what the two of you want and how you can partner together in that. So I'd love to hear more specifically, like what did each, what occurred for each of you or what awareness did you gain through the weekend of your individual um contribution to what wasn't working and what you needed to grow in yourself in order to partner together in the way you wanted.

SPEAKER_00 18:03

Um man, that's

Anger, Fear, And Emotional Awareness

SPEAKER_00 18:05

a that's a good question. There's quite a few things I think that came up for me over the course of the weekend. I think one of them was that I didn't realize the abundance of emotions that I was suppressing or not acknowledging. Like it was just, you just needed to ask me a question before it came out, right? And I think because of the busyness of life, those heart questions don't get asked in everyday family rhythms, you know, because you're bathing that kid while I'm doing the dishes, while that one's doing the laundry. And uh I cried a lot that weekend. Um, there was a lot that came out. Um, and how I was contributing to our dysfunction, not unknowingly, is I think I didn't fully believe that John wanted the same things I did for our free chair. I think because we kept getting stuck at these crossroads of like, you're too harsh, you're not hard, you're not firm enough, like I don't like the language, you're let you're correcting me in front of the kids. We had these like dances we were doing that were so not helpful that when we had the space of an entire weekend to just have the same conversation eight different times with eight different frameworks, right? Or questions leading us into it, it helped me truly believe that he did understand what I wanted and he wanted that too. I don't think I believed that. And yeah, just a lot came up that weekend, and I'm sure we'll get into it as we keep talking, but I would say those were the really two big things that I could share right off the bat.

SPEAKER_03 19:34

What about you, John?

SPEAKER_01 19:35

Yeah, I I think uh so again, I I'm gonna go back to the first night because again, that was I think that was really the basis, the foundation of the of the weekend for me. And it was very uh stripping um of my own thoughts and my own beliefs and my own systems uh in that that first communication that we had together and that first that first conversation that we talked through. Um I am someone who uh so again, retired um Air Force, uh I have uh plenty of physical and mental and emotional scars to to tout for my service. Uh and one of the biggest things that I have always described myself as, uh, one of the things that I would probably describe my brother as, my father as. And I think before that, before that weekend uh was angry. Um and anger for me is always a negative. Uh it had always been traditionally a negative. It was always something that I looked at as um a disability, if you will. And uh and that first night you just kind of shattered that whole perception um that it's not uh, you know, anger is not a defined emotional state. It is a reaction, or you know, it or it it is a it is a uh an a feeling that you can that you can harness and that you can change for good or for bad, and that there's the negative impacts of it, and there's a positive impact of it. And the anger that I actually took for anger, which now I know is not anger, or now I believe is not anger, um, is fear, and it's fear in its negative form. Uh, and um so I think after that first night, and that that just I walked away having having just a lot of questions. And uh but as the weekend continued on, uh you unpacked it and you opened that up. And what what we learned, you know, in the groups, in the large group setting, but then in our individual couples connection time was that, you know, my anger that I'm that I'm that I used to. Call anger is actually my fear being exposed in a negative manner in and is having negative impacts. And that, you know, that controlling that rage that I feel, that's because I'm worried that my boys aren't going to grow up to be men. And that my boys are going to grow up to be what I am, or worse than I am, or my father. And, you know, and all of the or the complete opposite, and they're not going to be successful, and they're not going to be, you know, able to take care of a family, and they're not going to have the things that I want for them. And so as we talked through the conversation that we came to have eight different ways, eight different times, with eight different promptings, um, you know, as Kathy said, it it was, it was, it's almost like an experiment. I you call it uh um in our large groups, the um conversation lab, the communication labs. Communication labs, communication labs. But I mean, that's essentially what we were doing is we were testing out our emotions and our responses with each other and and coming to new conclusions and hypothetically developing new hypotheses around how we can really change things and our dynamic to be not only fruitful for our own relationship, our own marriage and our own sanity, because after these children fly the coup, it's just gonna be me and her, but also so that we can

The Cost Of Disconnection At Home

SPEAKER_01 23:40

impact them and hopefully impact our grandchildren and our great-grandchildren and generations down the road. Uh, so you know, I think that that for me, like working through that understanding of my feelings and my emotions and properly identifying them in their either positive or negative traits, uh, I think that was huge. That was uh a breakthrough.

SPEAKER_03 24:08

Bad intended.

SPEAKER_02 24:10

Right, right.

SPEAKER_03 24:13

Yeah, so what I hear each of you saying is in reality, what was keeping or what you were each contributing was um stuffing emotions. For you, Kathy, it was stonewalling when the emotions came up, working to press them down. And for you, John, it was a misalignment or a misawareness, a lack of awareness of the gift of what these emotions are. You had labeled them as bad anger, which is from my experience one of the most powerful, beautiful emotions we can have and most needed to create the marriage and the family that we long for. But for you, because of the label, which I deeply resonate because I had done the same thing in my own life, um, you had mislabeled rage as anger and were when the the beauty of your anger would come up, you didn't know how to separate, you know, what's what is wisdom and discernment and passion, and what is trying to control something that isn't mine to control? And so in a lot of ways, you're describing emotional immaturity, which I don't I don't know if I'm don't have emotional immaturity. So how was this emotional, what toll, what what prices was the relationship paying for this emotional immaturity that you didn't know you had?

SPEAKER_01 25:41

Yeah, I I think I would say um disconnection, uh dysregulation in myself, um, in my own emotion, in my own emotional state. Um I think uh understanding the needs and the desires of Kathy, um and also the needs and the desires of the boys and and of the kids, you know, um and presenting, you know, as as I was presenting just one emotional front, which was a dysregulated emotion of fear. And um and it wasn't allowing anything else to come through. It wasn't allowing anything to come through. So it was very defining for me. It was very it was very all-encompassing in my world. Um, even so much so as I said, I I would I would introduce myself as being angry. Uh, you know, that's intense and angry and and over the top. And I think it is something that the boys, especially our oldest, um, he's come to kind of navigate and work around. Um, but it it is very reflective of my childhood. Uh and not not in the same level, not in the same way. I'm not trying to, you know, do what my father did, but the intensity and the and the um hardness is there. And so it it has created some disconnects between me and my son, my oldest son. Uh, and it has created definitely definite disconnects at times between me and Kathy.

SPEAKER_03 27:36

Yeah, for me, because our fear creates that disconnection, right? People, fear is designed to control, right? Our rage is designed to control people, which is what it does, but it controls them to run away and hide. And then we don't know why we don't have the connection that we long for.

SPEAKER_00 27:52

That's what made him like early on in our marriage. Uh, when we would get on the other side of really hard arguments, he when he was calmer, he'd say, I I do that to push you away. You know, I it's not necessarily a front brain thing, but it's like I'm presenting loud and scary so that you will leave me alone. And it's like, all right. And I think the the flip side of that is that what that produced in me was resentment. What that produced in me was despair. What that produced in me was a lack of trust that he actually could be like this person to lead our family, right? I and so I think that's sort of creating um what I felt was a need to like jump in control as well, because it's like this man's not steering us on the right on the right track. I'm gonna raise little angry helians at this pace. And so I need to be the extreme opposite, right? Which created an imbalance in parenting where I wasn't firm enough, you know, and then you know, boys and their moms, it's different, you know? Uh it's just a different perpetuating cycle.

SPEAKER_03 28:53

Um, bad cop. That's a common dance within parenting, especially with boys.

SPEAKER_00 28:58

Yes. And so, oh right, because they all want to be little alphas. I mean, you can see these little cubs all day long vying for place number one. And there's a sweetness about that and almost a humor when it's uh handled that way, but then when it's again in its sort of stunted emotional states, it created a lot of like anger and tension. And it's like it's not a fun place to be as a family.

SPEAKER_03 29:21

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So

Practical Shifts In Tone And Leadership

SPEAKER_03 29:26

what have you each shifted? Like what's changing uh as you for you, Kathy? You're getting in touch with those emotions and starting to tap into it. One of the things you said that I thought was really cool, you said this offline is that you you discovered this river running underneath the surface that um you didn't even know was there in tapping into your emotions. Um, so like what have each of you shifted? How do in a day-to-day interaction, I'm assuming you both have your automatic reactions that come up. So, what are you doing differently?

SPEAKER_00 30:06

So for me, it's interesting because last year I went through some health things and um got through them. John was wonderful throughout it, but I kept feeling like God was asking me to be softer. And that word was very upsetting to me as a, you know, getting firstborn, first generation family. I've learned to be very resilient and uh autonomous to a degree, and kind of connecting that to what's happening present day, allowing myself those emotions is also this also means that I have to trust that John can hold those emotions with me. Right. And so we've had some both positive and like I wouldn't say necessarily negative, but we've had some positive versions of that already in the last month or so. But then there was one situation where I just this well of tears that wouldn't stop for half an hour on a Sunday morning at our house. I couldn't stop crying. And it was like my body was purging. And it was actually it's another gross opportunity for us because John went into like, oh my gosh, let me get all the kids away from her. And like, and so what I actually wanted was for him to just be there with me, you know, and so we were able to even after the fact, it wasn't a fight, but it was like, I know you were trying to give space to what you thought was the right thing. But what I actually wanted was for you to be in it with me. And I felt alone, yes, you know, and so I'm I'm able to now even uh discern what I want. Where before I don't, I was just angry that he didn't know, you know, and I'm I'm starting to piece things together and allow myself the room to feel and like feel again, it's just it sounds so crazy saying it, but like almost feel more like a woman, yeah, you know, like walk in my in like a feminine energy instead of like that masculine controlling energy that I honestly wanted to get rid of to begin with in the last year. It's like I'm tired of being this way. Can someone just take this part over for me?

SPEAKER_03 31:59

Yeah. Well, we could go on for hours about that, Kathy, because there's so much in what you said. And ultimately what I heard you say is that um with when there's a lack of trust, when you don't trust your husband, then your tendency is going to be to function in the masculine energy. But in reality, John, as a man, he needs to know what you need, right? A man's like, tell me what you need, and I can be with that. But the only way we know what we need is if we're willing to feel when we're willing to feel that reveals what we need. And when we're not feeling, guys have no idea what we need, and everybody's just trying to control ever everything because everything's freaking everybody out.

SPEAKER_01 32:48

A hundred principles out of order.

unknown 32:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 32:53

So, what about you, John? What's practical application of what you are discovering about the gift of anger and the pain that rage causes, fear causes that.

SPEAKER_01 33:06

Yeah, I I think um, well, uh, so very much like Kathy, uh operating in a military environment since I was a kid, and then joining the military at 18 and leaving home and being on my own, you know, uh uh it taught me to be again very resilient and very hard. Um, and that's something that is just not necessary in a family setting, uh in a relationship. Um, I don't know that there's any relationship uh that necessarily needs each member to be hard in that relationship. In fact, I think that's probably the antithesis of being in a relationship. Um so I I feel a lot of times, and since we've come back in the last month since we've been back from the retreat, um I have not only softened my approaches in a lot of ways, but taken almost taken a step back to allow, I think, some more grace and some more um possibility in what the kids can do and and giving them the opportunity to show me what they can do and and how they can overcome uh whatever challenge they may be experiencing. Um I would say that I am also learning to kind of just even out my speech and even out my tone, uh, as I think that is so much so much part of a communication, you know, of the communication that we have with each other is tone and cadence and posture. I mean, we talked a little bit about that at the retreat. Um but just being able to kind of reset the expectations when the chaos erupts. Uh so actually, just yesterday morning it happened. Um, Sunday morning, everybody's kind of getting up, we're all deciding whether we want to get our life together and go to church, or whether we're gonna sit on the couch and watch from home. And um, and the the kids, they just were being kids on a Sunday morning. They woke up super early and were at each other. And um Kathy got very overwhelmed very quickly. Uh, and um, she usually tries to go out and take a walk in the mornings, and when she came back, she was just bombarded with the kids, and they were uh just doing normal kids stuff, but I was able to kind of interject myself into the situation and slow everything down and kind of really set the pace and set the tone and be that leader that Kathy is expecting. And um, and and by doing nothing but recognizing my emotional state and then compensating, you know, as the adult, compensating for where my emotional state was so that I could bring everybody else's emotional state down. And it and it we ended up having a great morning yesterday and a great day overall. Um, and that was just like the tone setting for the day. And so uh a lot of that is just really self-reflection and anticipation of what the situation could mean or what it could bring, yeah, uh, and and what Kathy needs and what Kathy is asking for in those moments. And again, tapping into my crystal ball when I need to.

SPEAKER_03 36:54

Yeah, it's powerful because um, you know, every single breakthrough is distinctly different.

Men Modeling Strength Through Vulnerability

SPEAKER_03 37:01

There is no breakthroughs that are the same. And one of the things I love about breakthrough, I cannot do at on cut on coaching, because I coach couples and I um train couples through breakthrough. Um, and I cannot do in coaching what I can do at breakthrough because I don't have the other 27 couples that are in the room. And John, one of the things that was so unique about this breakthrough was you guys got the opportunity to witness several men in the room come alive and expose their heart. Like their true anger was exposed in a beautiful, beautiful way. And that's what's so unique about a role as parents, especially as a father. Man, your boy seeing your heart, that's what calls a man up. And a man's heart is so different than a woman's heart, and it is so life-giving. And and like what happened at Breakthrough, these two men shifted the whole room because they were just real and honest and vulnerable. And it was controlled, but it was emotional. Um, and so I just love to hear from like your perspective, obviously, confidentiality, what everything that happens at breakthrough stays at breakthrough. Um at the same time, if you can speak in a general sense of what happened for you coming from what you had only seen, it sounds like you'd only seen men function in rage and try and move a situation through rage. And then you got an opportunity to watch two men not trying to move the room, just show up in honesty and truth in their care for their marriage. What impact did that have on you?

SPEAKER_01 38:47

Yeah, I mean, so when I think about a, you know, a man functioning to control things, it's kind of Sisyphus, you know, pushing the boulder up the hill. Um I the the two individuals, which I I think I at the end kind of shouted them out, um, they were incredible. Uh both there's nothing about them that I would have ever um labeled as weak or as ineffective or as even angry. Um, but they opened themselves up in a way that I have very rarely seen. Um, and I certainly never saw my own father model this. Um, but uh watching them and and their and their spouse, you know, working through the communication lab with you and working through the tension that they were, you know, that they were very much internalizing, I think, very much holding on to. Um and then bringing that to the surface. It was, it was it sounds a little cheesy, but it was inspiring. It was. Uh it was it was eye-opening, it was refreshing. Um, because I got to know these two individuals pretty well uh over the course of the weekend. Um and they're they were really great guys. And uh supporting their family, leading their family from the outside seemed very competently and confidently. Um, but then there's that that that craw, you know, in their in their paw, you know, and and um it it just it was it was it was it was amazing. I'm running out of adjectives. Uh it was, it was, it was, it was amazing, it was humbling.

SPEAKER_02 40:48

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 40:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:50

I think I think something to add to that part that I think really actually helped spur John to be able to connect dots for himself on our final couple's connection. We were walking through one of the many beautiful fields at this location, and he was kind of stream of consciousness just talking out loud. And he said, What if I've been focusing so much on the boys' character and their behavior because I want them to turn out a certain way. And what if what I should actually be focusing on is their hearts, so that they have everything they need to develop into all the things I want them to develop into. And I think I literally like threw my hands in the air and I was like, that's literally it. Like that is it. Like I, you know, and I didn't have the words to express that in a way that would make sense to him. But and I also don't think it would have happened outside of the incubator of this weekend, you know, because it was so much compressed time to talk, think, see, learn, absorb. Um, but that that's that what's seemingly a small shift is actually like monumentous for our family.

SPEAKER_03 41:56

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so many of us didn't grow up seeing emotionally intelligent parents. And so we don't have a lot of context. Um, but what happens in that room as each person begins to give themselves to the tension in their marriage, it not gives give themselves in a way of working to lead through to a breakthrough. Um, you begin emotional intelligence begins to come out of them in ways they didn't even, they haven't learned that. It's just automatically from us, but we don't often get a face to let something new emerge out of us. And then the rest of us get to watch it and experience it and be like, oh, that's what I'm wanting in me. Like, oh, okay, I can see the difference that that makes. And it's just a powerful experience to be in it with 28 couples who are committed to bringing true attention and the gift that we are to each other in just seeing what that means and what that looks like. And um, yeah,

Six Weeks Later The Results

SPEAKER_03 43:02

so uh as we conclude here, I want to just come back to some important distinctions that each of you said at the beginning where John, you mentioned that um 80% of the parenting conversations were defensive. And Kathy, you said that you would go for two days um often in this emotional internal rupture. What is happening? It's been six weeks since breakthrough. What's the what's happening now? What's the new results you're experiencing?

SPEAKER_01 43:36

I um so I I would say it's it's the inverse, like 100% the inverse. We are there are still hiccups here and there, and that's because we're humans and nobody's perfect. Uh, but it it's probably 2080 now, uh where you know that that very rare, that very rare situation where we're just kind of both. set up and and there's always tertiary issues going on stress at work or just tired not sleeping something you know um but most more often than not now we're able to work through disciplining and and teaching and guiding the kids together in a way that we are both comfortable with and happy with the direction and that neither one of us are pointing fingers at each other you know um it's it's very i it's the inverse it is 100% the inverse of where we were six weeks ago wow and what difference is that making in the relationship in your experience John well I mean it's it making everything calmer the tone of the house is calmer the tone I think even the behavior of the kids is is more appropriately reactionary to the situations. You know it's so easy for us to fly off the handle and lose our minds on the kids and then they quickly learn that like oh well they're just you know they're just dysregulated. You know obviously the little brains don't think that way but you know they just blow us off. Right. You know and I think now more than anything I mean yesterday we we had a very serious conversation with the boys in the morning about being considerate and having responsibilities around the house. And I think we told you when we came to breakthrough, we were right in the middle of both closing on a new house and selling our old house and moving 45 minutes away from where we had been um so it was a very stressful time and uh Kathy and I have done a lot of work to prepare our family for the transition over the last six weeks and um we brought that up with the boys several times with the kids um you know just that mommy and daddy need help that mommy and daddy can't do this alone. Well after our conversation yesterday our oldest decided he was going to take it upon himself to do the dishes and fill the dishwasher and help around the house all day long and he did and because he did it the two younger boys followed suit. The the youngest one he's still a little onry but uh but our middle son you know they were pitching in and they were they were kicking in and I think it we allowed them the space to have those thoughts versus just either blowing us off or running scared.

SPEAKER_03 46:42

Powerful that is powerful results because that's his heart moved him his heart moved him to action and his leadership led his brothers. Yes it's a it's a ripple and it started with you John your John your heart came alive and connected with your eldest and his heart it brought his heart alive.

SPEAKER_00 47:04

I saw that to him in the car ride too we took the kids to ice cream at the end of the day because I mean they for six hours I mean they were in the yard with us they and it was so beautiful and peaceful and as we were taking the kids to get some ice cream combs and the weekend I I looked at him while they were distracted and I just said you know I hope you see the power you hold in setting the tone in this family. Like you and I told and I thanked him and I said because you immediately it's like the intensity was there in the first 30 seconds and then I think he caught himself and then it shifted into like a really thoughtful conversation still firm but thoughtful it just it changed the outcome of the entire day wow yeah this is legacy building a hundred percent powerful and Kathy what about you you went you were at you know staying dysregulated for two days and what is the experience now I think because of the space we had that weekend to have a unified understanding and why together it it it propelled my trust for him in ways that I don't know that we could have done in years. And so bringing that forth into our home now what that what that means is like I feel actually a comfort level to be able to approach him when I feel like maybe I messed up or he didn't you know act in his character that allows us to regroup really fast, like within hours. I think the most I've gone maybe it was dinner the night before the very next morning we talked about it. And now it's kind of funny now we're almost a little like John's almost a little too eager to talk about things now that it catches me off guard where before he would kind of like avoid me. He's like why would I have tried to poke the bear and he jumps into the conversation and it's a little bit of whiplash for me. So there's also like um a new dynamic that's coming about in our relationship that it's like okay we're gonna talk about this and jump right into it.

SPEAKER_03 48:58

Give me a second to drink my coffee I used to call her the rabid wolverine like why wouldn't she like a rabid wolverine what do you call her now I I I don't know I got to come up with a new nickname she's like koala wow that that is powerful and it's testament to you guys' work right that it you're the ones that chose to show up at breakthrough and develop the leadership within yourself to lead those kinds of conversations that the two of you developed that weekend and have continued on with because like you said Kathy it's you know the 10 seconds that John reverted back that's part of the learning curve that's gonna happen.

SPEAKER_00 49:52

And it takes grace and patience for you to give him the space to lead himself and then you know yeah for you to be able to trust him in the messy I also just want to give you a shout out in this process because I know we talked about you quite a bit that weekend and also driving home where it's like you are a masterful like you're a tactician is what I told John. You know, I do workshops for a living I do marketing and I'm able to appreciate somebody who has a gift in speaking and leading and teaching and it every bit of that weekend was so intentional and like there was a positive intensity to it where it's like we came to do work and we came to get results.

SPEAKER_01 50:35

We're not here for like the great Instagram pictures and the beautiful setting that just happens to be cherry on top you know it's right we we did work and I I just really appreciated that you followed your your calling and what God was leading you into because you're seeing the results of that yeah yeah 100% and the other thing was that you know it wasn't just we were there with the teacher the instructor the no we were there with Julia and her husband the couple as well and and the you know the openness that you guys had to share with us to you know bring us all I think in together in in the communication sphere that we were there for right everybody was there for a reason and I I don't think there was I

Closing Thanks And Next Step Invite

SPEAKER_01 51:30

I can't say that there was anybody that I noticed in there that was resistant. And in fact I would say more people were persistent in wanting to share and wanting to be a part of the communication versus not. And I think that's directly correlated to the openness and the honesty that you guys had uh you know sharing with us in the group yeah it is a special weekend the next one is coming up in four weeks about six weeks and I'm very excited and so grateful um that couples like you guys decide you want to invest in your marriage.

SPEAKER_03 52:07

What a powerful commitment to say this marriage matters this person matters to me and I want to keep investing through the years in this relationship. So I appreciate that mindset and I think that's um ultimately the key to a happy marriage is investing in development because we are all are a becoming um every day of our lives. So thank you guys so much I'm so grateful to get to learn more about you guys's story and the impact that Breakthrough had and I'm so um grateful that our listeners you you've been willing to share it with our listeners so thank you thank you yeah thank you Julia thank you Julia I want to talk to you about something super exciting it's a game changer really to have the relationship you long for you must take responsibility for yourself and who you are being moment by moment. It's not about what your spouse needs to change it's about you taking control of the only thing you can control which is you. That's the truth that nobody's talking about when they talk about marriage. But I am inside the marriage growth community where I will help you take responsibility for your ability to lead conversations with your spouse to love and connection so you can have the marriage you dreamed of when you first fell in love. At the very first link in the show notes you can grab my marriage growth community and that's really going to help. I know that because it's based on the same principles I've used to coach this couple and hundreds of other couples to marriage success over the last nine years. So grab marriage growth community at the top of the show notes.