Hey Julia Woods
Join me, Julia Woods, a couples coach and wife of over 3 decades, as I share some of my client's stories and my own so that you can be encouraged, inspired, and gain new results in your marriage.
Hey Julia Woods
You’re the Problem - to Real Partnership
We trace Sari and Corey’s path from a decade of conflict avoidance to a practical, hopeful toolbox for intimacy. Addiction recovery, leadership at home and work, and the science of shame become catalysts for trust, curiosity, and partnership.
• early marriage shaped by addiction, loss, and avoidance
• the moral story that made conflict feel wrong
• loneliness as the hidden cost of peacekeeping
• honesty and transparency as recurring triggers
• leadership gaps across business and home
• the vacation planning pattern as a mirror
• “stay in your own backyard” as a core tool
• rewriting pessimistic stories with curiosity
• listening to the body to catch shame early
• choosing connection over being right
• why they invest in recurring breakthroughs
Please let us know in the comments what you're taking away from this episode
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Welcome to Hey Julia Woods Podcast. I'm your host, Julia Woods, founder of Beautiful Outcome, a coaching company focused on helping couples learn to see and understand each other, even in the most difficult conversations. On my podcast, I will share with you the real and raw of the messiness and amazingness of marriage. I'll share with you aspects of my relationship and the couples I coach in a way that you can see yourself and find the tools that you need to build the marriage you long for. And this couple, you I think you're going to resonate a lot with them. Let me give you a few context details so you understand a little bit more about them. One, they own, they are business owners. They partner in business and own two businesses, um, photographers, which brings a lot of us together in this world of what I do. Um, they have two grown children with two grandbabies, and they live in the Columbus, Ohio area. And the results they are getting from coming to Breakthrough and being a part of that community is really profound. Sari said that she's had a 90% increase in actually facing difficult conversations. And Corey said he's experiencing a 50% growth in emotional maturity. So we're gonna talk about what does that mean? What is that, how does that affect their day-to-day life? And so welcome, sorry and Corey. Thank you for being here and sharing your story with us. Hi, Julia.
SPEAKER_00:Hi, Julia. Great to be here. Thanks so much for having us.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, yes. So let's just dive in and let's talk about um you know, the things nobody wants to talk about. What was life like? What brought you to decide you wanted to come to breakthrough? And like, you know, what when you weren't when you were at, I think, sorry, you told me you were zero percent facing difficult conversations. And Corey, you were zero percent emotional maturity. So what was life like?
SPEAKER_00:So before we even came to our first breakthrough, you know, we had been married for 15 years. Um the first five years of our marriage was absolute chaos because we were uh both living um in addiction. Uh, the first year of that, we were both in active addiction. Uh, the second year of our marriage, I was gone for that year to get help for addiction. And sorry, was raising the girls by herself and working on her part of that of addiction as well. And so then year three and four, uh, I lost my mom and then relapsed. And so it was the fifth year before um, you know, we started kind of getting our lives together a little bit. Only by the grace of God did did we make it through that first five years. Um, and so the next 10 years, you know, I think we spent a lot of time, you know, like sorry, it said, just avoiding any conflict at all, uh, because we were both scared that we would end up, you know, pushing one or the other to go make our bad decision and head back towards addiction. Um, and so we pretty much avoided any hard conversations, period. Um, and and if it did get tough and there was an argument or something or disagreement, um, typically we would both go our separate ways and and kind of deal with it in different ways that we'll talk about here in a little bit.
SPEAKER_01:All right. That's great. Sorry, what would you say? Anything different you would say to about that?
SPEAKER_02:No, that was you really summed that up beautifully. Um certainly, like after um we got saved and our life started to change, and we surrendered and started making big changes in our life. Um, I just wanted to honor the Lord, you know, in my life. And um in my mind, and no one actually said this to me, but in my mind, um, it was staying grateful and thankful and focusing on the bigger things in my mind, the bigger things and more important things in this world um that would honor him. And um focusing on our problems and um these little issues as I would like see them back then was just gonna um bring us back to where we were before we, you know, surrendered our lives.
SPEAKER_01:If that makes sense. Yeah, it does. So what I hear you saying is that um facing the day-to-day tensions in your marriage, for you, it was a moral issue. It felt like an immoral choice to face the difficult, what you called small tensions that were coming up in the marriage. Is that what you're saying?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, interesting. So, what did that create? Like you guys were, you know, were we working to be recovering and living in recovery and yet you know, dealing with loss, facing loss, and not having any of the real conversations when you were hurt or when you were offended or when you saw things different, what did that produce?
SPEAKER_00:So I think it for for me, I'll speak for me, it created a sense of loneliness. And um, there were a lot of times that I would feel shameful or not good enough. Um, and you know, wouldn't even talk to her about that. And so I think if we would have probably never came to the first breakthrough, that slowly we were we were slowly growing apart without even realizing it. And you know, who knows where we would be 10 years from now, you know, or or would we be 10 years from now?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Like how you said without even realizing it, because like my villain had me so like um blinded to what was really going on. You know, we were staying so busy, the kids were younger, we were staying in recovery and facilitating meetings for others, coming alongside others. And I had so many stories in my mind um about what would happen if we would discuss the things that were actually deeply bothering me. Um, so yeah, the unaware of what was really going on.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. What was bothering you? Like what were some of the conversations, the tensions that you were avoiding talking about?
SPEAKER_00:Uh honesty was a big one. Um, that was the the you know, honesty and you know, coming from my my past with addiction and stuff, there was uh a lot of dishonesty previous in our, you know, prior to. And and so it would be things that it was maybe it wasn't even that I was not being honest, um, but there was this sense of not being fully transparent um with sorry that would would create um fear in her that I was wasn't being honest. Um and so, you know, whenever that came up, you know, it there was like, well, I am being honest, and I don't know what else to do. And then it felt like no matter what I did, it wasn't enough. Um, so uh, you know, that was kind of the one of the big ones was honesty. Um, you know, how we handled conflict um was another one uh because I wanted to talk about things and she didn't. And so um there was always this like kind of push and pull type deal. Um and then leadership issues, which uh has a lot to do with the emotional maturity part as well, I believe.
SPEAKER_01:Can you talk more about that? What did leadership issues look like? What did it sound like in the day-to-day life?
SPEAKER_00:So in my mind, there were uh the story that I was telling myself was that I have some really good strengths and things that I'm good at, and sorry has some too, has a lot of strengths. Um, and there's things that she's really good at. And in my mind, it was like, well, you do the things you're good at, I'll do the things I'm good at, and you know, let's that that's a great team. However, there were things that uh sorry wanted me to take some leadership in, um, that you know, I would say that I I was unaware of, but then even after being made aware of them, um I kind of like refused to do them just because I thought, well, I'm already doing these things over here, so um, and these are the things I'm good at. So, you know, that that was the story that you know.
SPEAKER_01:Was this showing up a lot in business?
SPEAKER_00:Yes. Business and personal life. Yeah, I can give an example. So uh sorry is a really great planner, uh, vacation planner. Um, you know, booking the hotel, booking, you know, making sure everything is perfect. Um, that's not my strong suit. Like computers and and me aren't friends, and uh so um I'm more of a hands-on, hands-on guy. And uh, so you know, we would go, you know, we've we've traveled quite a bit, and um, and so there would be these vacations, and it was always this like, hey, can you take care of this? Can you and and it was like, well, like I'm gonna be the one helping like loading, packing, and doing all this. Like, this is what you're good at. You just do your thing, baby. I love it, you know, it's great. Um, but there was a part of her, I and I'm what I failed to realize, there's a part of her that wanted wanted me to join her in that, um, and work with her in planning our vacation. And there was a part for me to play in that. Um, and so, you know, I was never curious as to why she wanted me to be. I just thought it was, I need you to do something else. Um, and so learning more about it, it was more so of like, I want to do this with you. Um, like, let's plan this together instead of just me doing it and you coming along for the ride.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. That this is, I think, very um, this will connect a lot for listeners. I know it connects for me in Jeff and I's relationship. So tell me, like, what kind of one? I want to just take a minute and share what I heard you say, Corey, um, just to make sure I'm hearing correctly and that the listeners are uh connecting some of the dots here. So what I hear is that you were listening from I'm not enough. And so you were like trying to do all you could do to be the best you could be in your strengths and giving sorry the freedom to do all that she wanted to do in her strengths. And if sorry wanted you to join her in the vacation planning piece, you felt like it you were hearing her say, I'm not, you're not enough. What you're doing isn't enough. Is that what you were saying?
SPEAKER_00:Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. So how did that what did that produce? Like what were what were the what was the fights like that about? What did vacation, what impact did that make on vacation when you were hearing it from that place?
SPEAKER_00:Um so prior to vacation, there it there was always a it there was always an argument prior to, um, it felt like. Um the moment the you know, the especially the last couple days leading up to it, um, because uh sorry had felt like she had taken on, you know, this burden by herself. And um, and then I felt like I was taking on the burden of like the whole the packing and and all that kind of stuff by myself. And so I think we both kind of felt alone in the you know parts that we were playing. And um, and you know, our vacations, I they always they always went seemed to go perfect. I do know that there were there were times when there was definitely tension, um, but we didn't address it on vacation because the kids are there and you know, let's put our smiley faces on and and you know it let's make it great. And then, you know, in our minds, I think it was like we'll deal with this when we get home, but then we never do.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. And what was your experience with all that? Sorry, what were you feeling?
SPEAKER_02:I would say I felt unappreciated and you know, all the work that went into doing it, you know. Um I'm recalling moments like uh what's the address? Where are we going? You know, what time's our flight leave, um, all the things, you know. And, you know, I would have to admit, you know, it's my own fault. Um when we came through addiction and recovery, um, I was micromanaging everything and our family just to keep us safe and to keep us on the road of you know, being in a good place. And um, and so I I just did survival mode, you know, and trying to keep everything nice and tidy. But inside, you know, I'm feeling unappreciated and I'm um feeling and I'm not trusting him, you know, deep inside. And so there's all these stories I'm telling myself and not asking myself, well, what else could be true, you know, back then. Um, and so I would just avoid talking to him, I don't know, maybe out of fear of finding out the truth or just, you know, um causing him to do something um out of shame. Um, and you know, we were, I felt like in a in a good place. The story I told myself was we were in a good place. We were both lonely.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. What what did that? I mean, obviously you guys came to breakthrough in 2021. With you came to the very first breakthrough and have continued to come every year. So what um what brought you to decide to come?
SPEAKER_02:You wanna go ahead? Sure. Okay, so um while walking walking in the door, I felt like you were going to, because Corey was bringing up um, you know, tension issues, like let's talk and like know, right? The story I was telling myself, let's focus on the bigger things in life, you know. And so I thought walking through the door, you were gonna, you know, teach us, teach him how to be thankful and just to move forward. And then the first 10 minutes, like you do every year, you explain, like I had no idea. It was your first, I think, breakthrough retreat that we were at. And um, you told us we were going to have a conversation and breakthrough um attention. And I was like, Where's the door? How can I get it out as fast as possible? What is going on? So um I was wrong, and um being wrong never felt so beautiful, like it was such a beautiful experience, and it changed our lives and changed our marriage. And I've been able to apply it to our marriage, to my relationships um with my daughters and friendships.
SPEAKER_01:So yeah. So what um so you came thinking, okay, Julia's going to tell Corey that I am right, that we should just learn to be more grateful with each other and not have these uh you know, frivolous little tensions, conversations about tensions.
SPEAKER_00:I think that's why we both came, was like, I think she thought she she was gonna be right, and I thought I was gonna be right. You know, like we I think we I think we both like were like, yeah boy, I cannot wait to get there. And uh that was not what happened at all.
SPEAKER_01:Well, the great thing is both of you are right, like reality, we do want to face the tensions and gratitude and seeing the bigger picture can make a huge difference, and that's the beauty of marriage is usually both people are right, quote unquote right, but it's fighting for being right that makes us so lonely. So, um, so what happened for you guys? You um came in both thinking you were gonna be right and realized there was more possibilities than what you had thought. So, so what's what has opened up for you guys? What is shifting for you in the way you uh communicate and connect with each other?
SPEAKER_02:The um two biggest things that come to mind is staying in my own backyard. Um, that was so huge at the first breakthrough. And you would think it would be so simple, but um, it's really hard to stay in your own backyard. But what I found out is like when when I stay in my own backyard and work on myself, like it brings down his defense and his um shame um and all the things that he finds challenging. And then in return, it like builds my trust and um and decreases my fear and all the things that I'm challenged with. The other, the other thing is always asking myself, that's the story I'm telling myself, but what else could be true? And just going through that um when I when I find myself, when I am aware that I'm telling myself a story when I don't even know for sure if it's true, I will go through that tool that you've given us.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Do you have any? Yeah. Do you have a specific example, sorry, of something recent that happened where the backyard um analogy, which for those of you listening, if you've listened for any bit of time, you know what that means, in that each person takes 100% responsibility for what's in their backyard, as a husband and wife are like two neighbors with their fenced-in backyards. And in each of their backyards is their feelings, whether it's shame, whether it's loneliness, whether it's fear, whatever it is, 100% responsible for their emotions, their thoughts, their beliefs, their reactions. All that um comes out of us and goes on inside of us is 100% our responsibility. And when we take 100% responsibility for that, it begins to improve the whole neighborhood.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, so I'll use an example when it comes to our business. So um he comes alongside me and my business, and vice versa. And so uh we are working on um really diving deep into his business uh this last quarter and working, and I'm working on systems, okay. And um the story that I could tell myself is that um I'm gonna do all this, and he's not gonna come along and do his part. So I was focused on my own backyard and what um we had a to-do list, and I'm just gonna, you know, focus on the things that I've agreed to do and um do it with joy and do it a hundred percent. And um I don't know, we've not discussed this, but he came along and did exactly what he, you know, with joy and what coming to life, you know, on the things that he was, you know, um, we agreed for him to do.
SPEAKER_01:Okay. So you noticed your story was that I'm gonna do all this, and then he's not going to follow along. He's not going to incorporate the system that I am laying out.
SPEAKER_02:Yes.
SPEAKER_01:So did you notice you shifted that story, or you were just waiting, you wound up being wrong that he actually did implement it in a way you didn't think that he would.
SPEAKER_02:I found myself like uh noticing that I was being pessimistic, you know, he's not gonna, you know, do this. And then I would catch myself and like, you gotta stop, you know, the stop that thought, you know, and just go back to staying in my own backyard.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. And focus on you showing up unless him, whether he's gonna show up or not, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, exactly. And that has happened. That's just one example. It happens all the time. And I I mean, I remember the first blanket time, and before we would at the retreat, you know, we would write down what we thought the other one was going to say on that blanket time, and realizing, oh my goodness, I'm so, you know, you didn't say any of those things, you know. So I use that example a lot when I'm talking to friends and trying to encourage them. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that's great. Corey, what happened to you? What has been happening for you over the last four breakthroughs?
SPEAKER_00:So noticing in the first breakthrough, um, learning, you know, all the tools that you you teach us, like one of the biggest things that I think I've learned over the last four years is to pay attention to my body um and to you know, pay attention to what I'm listening for. And the best example that I think I could give is uh at the last breakthrough, um, you gave us uh uh one of our uh blanket times was to go out and to dream about our future. And so, you know, as I'm telling sorry what my dreams for the future are, um I get done and she says, you know, like, is that really like all you dream about? And what I heard was my dreams weren't big enough. Um and like you should dream more, way bigger than that. And so I felt myself scoot up to the edge of my chair and like you know, close my little green book and like kind of put my head down. And then it dawned on me, like it was like, oh my goodness, like what did I just do? You know, and and I think she noticed it as well. And it was like my whole body just went into like shame of like I and so I as I recognized it, I was like, okay, you what you what I heard was my dreams aren't big enough. And like I could feel my body like heading in that direction of like, okay, now I don't even want to have this conversation. Um and so uh when once I was honest with her about like, you know, that's what I heard, and and this is how I'm feeling, um, whether it's true or not, um, that was the story that I was telling myself. And so, and what she said was, you know, like, you know, baby, no, absolutely not. Like, I just want the world for you. And I was just asking an honest question of like, you know, are those your dreams? And or are you just like holding back because you want to say something that pleases me? And I want you to be like completely honest, and and and it was it just came from a sincere place from her that I was just like, I instantly felt like, oh, like wow, like I was so wrong in in what I heard and actually what she was saying or asking me.
SPEAKER_01:Wow. That's powerful. And I love so what you're describing just for context from a um, you know, coaching perspective is that you're you're learning that as human beings, what we believe produces what we think, which produces what we feel, which produces what we do. And I often hear men um talk about breakthrough in the context of, oh my gosh, I'm gonna need to go and think about my feelings. And that we're gonna need to talk about feelings. But one the first year of breakthrough, I had a couple where the wife bought the husband, uh, bought the ticket to come to breakthrough, didn't tell the husband until two weeks or three weeks before breakthrough. I don't recommend that. But anyway, that was definitely his fear. And after that first year, he's like, Oh my goodness, you're talking about science. Now you have my attention. And that's what you're describing, Corey. You're describing the beauty of how our bodies are wired and made, that they tell us a lot. And we will notice what our body is doing often before we'll even recognize what we're feeling, and we and before definitely before we will realize what we're thinking. And so what happened is because you're willing to connect to what your your body's actually doing, you're able to notice that shame and that fear that drives you to want to self-protect. And you miss the beauty of what your wife's wanting to offer you, which is freedom and um, you know, your dreams, and how powerful just because you're growing your ability to notice your emotions through noticing the science of what your body, how your body is, you know, showing up and what it's how it's reacting. That is incredible.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. So what is this shifting in your day-to-day life together? What's opening up for you guys?
SPEAKER_02:A connection that um was missing. And each year there's just that deeper connection, deeper intimacy in our relationship where we can come together and have deep, meaningful conversations without, and they don't always like go wonderful. Like, you know, we need sometimes we need to take a break, go for a walk, you know, agree to come back to it at a different time. Um, but it's beautiful to um know that we can have these conversations and we may not, we may agree to disagree in the end, but I feel closer to him and understood, and I don't feel lonely, if if that makes sense.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, yeah, I was I was just gonna say that like I don't feel like we're two people on different sides anymore. Um, that you know, we we like she said, we may agree to disagree on some things, um, but we're at least willing to be in it together um and not see it as, well, my way is the only right way or her way is the only right way, but to be in it together and recognize that we are two different individuals and um we have you know different dreams and different goals. Um and as a couple, how do we, you know, come alongside each other to help each other achieve those things without our without trying to push our own agenda?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that is big. We don't realize how much of an agenda we always have, we're always up to something, something and it's usually not partnership. It yes, it takes working in our backyard to notice. Oh, I'm choosing life according to me, myself, and I. And I chose marriage, which means I chose partnership. And this isn't moving me towards partnership, it's moving me towards loneliness and despair. So powerful. So exciting. What would you say to your younger self if you were listening to this podcast and feeling um, you know, like, hey, my spouse is wrong? I know they're the problem. Uh, and yet I don't know. Are the like did was there any challenge in you guys uh the other one agreeing? Like who found out about breakthrough and who invited the other? Was it an immediate yes, or was it well?
SPEAKER_00:Actually, we were at a photography conference, and um and Sean, Sean Gordon was there, and uh, so we I had become friends with Sean and uh and sorry had introduced me to Sean. Um, and so he had said, Hey, like there's this conference thing, I think it would be really great for you guys. And I think for us at the time, like we had said, I don't think we like recognized that we were heading for even deeper loneliness and despair, right? Like we thought, hey, we're we're in a good place, like you know. Um, and I think what our initial thought was was like, hey, we invest in a lot of things business-wise, we invest in our kids, you know, we knew that it was important to invest in our marriage. Um, and so that was the decision that we made in in coming to our first breakthrough. Um, but I don't think we initially thought like we would end up where we're at today. I think we thought that like we had said, that it's uh I was going to hopefully uh be proven right and and so was she.
SPEAKER_01:So yeah, yeah. Anything for you, sorry.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I would just encourage you, encourage others just to be curious, um, no matter where you're at, even if you are in a place um where you're feeling hopeless, um just to get curious and uh and be open to um new ideas and new tools. And then also I would um encourage others that the goal isn't for a perfect perfect marriage where there's never gonna be any arguments or tension, um, because that's just not realistic. Um, we live in this fallen world and we're two different people and we are together 24-7. So of course there's gonna be tension, and that that's why we keep coming back. Um because I always learn something each time we're together with you, Julia, and um it our marriage is worth it um to learn how to grow to a deeper place of connection and intimacy every year, and to not let my villain blind me, you know, because uh once the year comes around, I am in need of another breakthrough because my villain is so sneaky. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:So that's how they would encourage others, and I think it's like peeling, kind of peeling the onion too. Like, you know, like I don't know that after my first year, I would be able to say like 50%, you know, I would have that 50% decrease. Um like I think each year we grow a little bit more. There's a different um something else that comes up that you know we're working through. Yeah. Um, that you know, it's just like okay, like we know what to do and we have all the tools, and but there's just something, and it's like, and it's I think it goes back to that like self-thing, like you almost you kind of go back to like, but but uh I this is what I want, you know, or this is how I see it. And yeah, um, and so you just it's great to just come back to break through um year after year and invest in our marriage and and it because it is worth it and we believe in it, and uh and it's it's hard to like do that here with family and two businesses and all the day-to-day, and to carve out that weekend to so we can so I can't avoid, you know, there is blanket time that you're gonna have to go to, and um, it's just very refreshing.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, that's why we make it a priority.
SPEAKER_01:Love it. Well, thank you guys so much for sharing your story, and thank those thank you to all of you who have joined in and listened. And uh please let us know in the comments what you're taking away from this episode.