Hey Julia Woods
Join me, Julia Woods, a couples coach and wife of over 3 decades, as I share some of my client's stories and my own so that you can be encouraged, inspired, and gain new results in your marriage.
Hey Julia Woods
We pick a fight each week and are deepening connection.
Josh and Mandy share their journey from feeling profoundly disconnected in marriage to rediscovering genuine intimacy and connection through intentional conversations and personal growth.
• Previously at a level 8 loneliness despite living life together
• Discovered they were living "parallel lives" with clearly divided responsibilities
• Found looking into each other's eyes exposed they hadn't truly connected in years
• Learned to identify how their own self-criticism shaped how they heard their partner
• Recognized the danger of emotional apathy that had crept into their relationship
• Committed to weekly intentional conversations about difficult topics
• Navigated their first breakthrough by realizing they were having two different conversations
• Discovered it's okay to need each other rather than maintaining rigid independence
• Reported their loneliness level dropped from 8 to 2 in just 8-10 weeks
• Created a new vision for their marriage beyond what they had witnessed in their parents
If you're feeling disconnected in your marriage, know you're not alone. We invite you to take the first step by identifying one area of tension you can discuss with your spouse this week, and remember – the relationship you have with yourself sets the tone for your marriage.
_______
💥💥Everything you need to grow the marriage you long for is waiting for you in the Marriage Growth Community:
https://beautifuloutcome.com/mgc-one-time-offer
🎁 Free Gift for you! 100 Prompts and Ideas to Connect with your Spouse!
🎁 FREE GIFT: Turn Defensiveness into Connection! https://beautifuloutcome.com/e-guide
_
👉 Take the free communication quiz! What’s YOUR communication type?! https://beautifuloutcome.com/communication-quiz
_______
Where you can find me:
INSTAGRAM: Connect with me at @HeyJuliaWoods
YOUTUBE: Subscribe to @HeyJuliaWoods
SHOP: Marriage resources in my storefront
RETREATS: Attend a Marriage Workshop
WEBSITE: Find more resources at BeautifulOutcome.com
FACEBOOK: ...
Welcome to hey Julia Woods podcast. I'm your host, Julia Woods, founder of Beautiful Outcome, a coaching company focused on helping couples learn to see and understand each other, even in the most difficult conversations. On my podcast, I will share with you the real and raw of the messiness and amazingness of marriage. I'll share with you aspects of my relationship and the couples I coach in a way that you can see yourself and find the tools that you need to build the marriage you long for.
Speaker 2:Welcome to another episode of. Hey, julia Woods, I am so excited for you to meet this guest. I actually thought this guest was a phantom for many years because so many of my clients my favorite clients have talked about Josh and Mandy, this amazing couple, for years, and I actually got to find out they do exist. I got to meet them at the last breakthrough when they attended, and all the hype is true. They are amazing and so I'm excited for you to get to meet them. They are very busy, just like all of us. They have been married 13 years. They have a three-year-old and a five-year-old. Josh works full-time as a teacher and then is a worship pastor at his church and Mandy works in the youth ministry and holds you know, holds down everything at home and it is real busy life and they have taken time to be with us and I am so grateful. So thank you, josh and Mandy, for being here.
Speaker 3:Oh, thanks for having us. We're excited.
Speaker 2:Yes, okay, so you guys came to Breakthrough. After how many years had you been being invited to Breakthrough? I mean, how many years had you been being invited to Breakthrough?
Speaker 4:I mean, how many years has it been happening?
Speaker 2:Since the beginning.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it was a long time coming. We were excited.
Speaker 2:So what brought you to finally decide okay, we're going to come this year.
Speaker 4:Well, we similarly were not sure if you were real. Everybody talks about it, julie, and yeah, the hype was just so great and finally we caved, and so yeah, yeah, I mean, it didn't really feel for a while.
Speaker 3:We like had the excuse of like, oh, it's just not possible for us right now, maybe someday. And then I think we finally just realized if we're going to do it, we're just going to have to make it possible. And so we just took the leap of faith and jumped in. We're so glad we did.
Speaker 4:Yeah, we're already signed up next year.
Speaker 2:Yeah, already signed up Well, and it makes sense, with a three and five-year-old and it's four years, you know, four years old. You guys have been in the midst of baby making and so it's amazing what happens when the youngest gets like three and then five, and a whole lot of new possibilities open up. So totally so we were connecting with each other on what is it that's really happening. You guys came in April and we are recording this at the end of June, so you've had about eight to 10 weeks of time to implement what you learned and what you gained, and the results are rather shocking. The two of you said that you have gone from a level eight. Loneliness, like the loneliness that you felt with each other, was at a high level of eight and since breakthrough it has dropped. Your loneliness has dropped to a level two. So let's talk about the inverse. Like, what's the connection? Is that a true inverse for your connection, like, your connection level was at a two coming in and now it's at a level eight, or is it different than that?
Speaker 4:Oh, that's a good question, you know. I think it's funny because I think 24 hours before breakthrough I don't think we would have said that we were that lonely.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's almost like it pulled the veil away and we saw what our life really was. I think we were so comfortable with just this survival mode of like making life happen, all the little logistics, and you know, we wouldn't have said we were always around each other, so like physically, presence wise, we were in the same room, but we were not connecting in a way that that made us feel like seen, cared for, loved both of us. And I think it's funny, the thing that really showed it to us was night one, at Breakthrough. You had us look into each other's eyes and we both just started crying because I don't think we had looked in each other's eyes for longer than like five seconds other than to you know what is on the calendar for today. It was like it really hit me in that moment of like. I don't even like when's the last time we connected like this.
Speaker 4:And so, yeah, Right, connected like this, and so right, yeah, right, and connecting in a sense of like, of really like, of feeling like we're like, my opinion is heard, my feelings are heard, and and vice versa. You know, like we would have said, oh, we're connected, like we spend time together, you know we're not in fights, but, um, but yeah, I think that was a big realization of like, oh, like we actually need each other and we were kind of living parallel lives without coming to terms with the fact that we needed something from one another.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah takeaway. Some of the key takeaways for me of that like loneliness piece was we just both had become super self-sufficient in our marriage and we would had kind of like, without saying it openly, we had divvied up this is Mandy's thing and this is Josh's thing and we will not, you know, trespass on the other. They can just handle it and and the system was working for us in a, you know, just in a logistical sense. But when we had to really rate I think you had us rate our loneliness it was kind of shocking to both of us. I, I didn't, and it was hard to hear, actually, if I'm honest, like it was hard for me, even though I felt lonely. Hearing Josh say he felt lonely was hard to hear it felt like a I don't know.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it was hard to take, but I'm glad that we said it.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and I think for me too, like it was a big realization of like why I think I knew, like before, oh, there are things that I can't speak into, you know, like certain things it's like I just need to grin and bear it and that's just the way it is. Um, and so that was. I was like oh, this is really lonely, and I viewed myself I think this is a big theme for you but I viewed myself as being like the bigger man, like, oh, I'm taking the high road, and really that was just like shutting off and becoming apathetic, like it wasn't so much I, you know, I like to say, oh, I'm just a servant, you know, but it was really just checking out and saying, well, just capitulating, yeah.
Speaker 2:Wow, that's power. That's really, really huge. And I, you know I often I get to work with couples who find themselves at, you know, the last, this is their last ditch effort, like divorce is what they're looking at, or an affair has happened, or you know whatever. And the question is often how did we get here? Right, and what I hear the two of you describing is the how they get there in a way they didn't even realize.
Speaker 2:Right, the loneliness and the apathy is growing and growing and growing and gradually, the less connected you are to each other, the easier it is to do the things that when you were deeply connected, you never would have considered doing. But it's okay now because they don't really care and whatever. Right, Like, what is that? Were you guys? Were you seeing any of that show up in your relationship? Any of that? Like, how, how did you see that? When you look back now Cause obviously you didn't see the apathy until you came into an environment where you were invited to get honest about it. When you look back now, where do you, how do you see the apathy?
Speaker 3:I think, um, I think for me it was just um, numbing, like picking a lot of, I think, to just check out. I'd be fully in on 100% when the kids were there and then we'd put them to bed and I'd just be done. I didn't want to connect. Sometimes we would even should we play a game or should we talk, trying to figure out, nah, I don't really want to. So that's how I felt. The apathy was like I would receive an invitation for something more Like Josh would be like do you want to go on a date night? Or something. I'd be like no, I don't really want to try to find a babysitter, I just want to, you know, watch TV and be on my phone. On the opposite end of the L of the couch of you, I was like the most disconnected, even though we're in the same space and so, even though I wasn't like acting out necessarily, I was choosing disconnection from him and I was super comfortable in it. So that was mine.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and I feel like for me and there's probably an element of that too right, because I'm like, I'm condoning it you're on the other end of the l yeah exactly, yeah, I'm not, you know, like yeah, and but I think another aspect for me too is just like when things would happen that I would want to like speak into, like oh, I'm not comfortable with this or I don't want this, I would just, I would just, I would just, you know, like okay, well, I just kind of shut down, like like I was just saying, and just check out. So yeah, I think it was. It was almost apathy in the truest sense of like I just don't care, she can do what she wants to do, and you know kids, and I'll go over here or I'll go over here while she and the kids do whatever, yeah, yeah, the level of care is it's.
Speaker 2:It's so gradual. I say to people that bitterness and resentment is the carbon monoxide poisoning to a wedding, to a marriage. Right, you have no idea. People who are, who you know, deal with carbon monoxide poisoning. They had no idea, they couldn't see the signs. It's this gradual frog in the pot that you know. It's like it just gradually moves there. And then when you do that, when you have that experience that you're talking about, which I think is very relatable to so many people of you know, do you want to go on a date? It's too much work to get a babysitter. Do you want to? You know, play a game. Just watch this TV show that's set up in a way to addict me. See what happens tonight, right, and. And then temptations come and the storms come and disappointment happens and hardship comes, whether it's the loss of a parent or loss of job or this or that, and we've lost the ability to deeply need each other and we wind up turning away from each other when we most need each other and then it goes down from there.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yes, totally no-transcript just coming on, it just happened. We never really knew how to set it up, but, um, I would be kind of in the critical attack mode and Josh you? Yeah, I always tend toward self-preservation and Like offensive, and so it was so frustrating because both of us would leave feeling even more disconnected, like well, he does not care what I have to say, he only cares about being right. And he would be like, how would you feel about that?
Speaker 4:Yeah, I just feel like you just know what you think of me and there's no changing your mind, like you think I'm the worst, and so yeah, and so then we started like avoiding each other.
Speaker 3:In that sense too, I was like let's just maintain the status quo, try to have a nice day, and um and um, and it felt normal. It was like our, our thing, that's how we were, and it was kind of felt like we could live our whole life like that and be okay, didn't really think about something else being possible.
Speaker 2:So, yeah it, it's crazy what we uh certain Kierkegaard says we find a level of despair we think we can tolerate and we define it as happiness. Yeah, and I think that is such a common thing in a marriage, because you grow up and you see your parents' marriage and each of you saw a different parents' marriage, right, and you think, um, okay, like this is normal, this must be normal, this is right, is normal, this must be normal, this is right. We can go on a date and have fun. Sure, we can. You know we laugh. This is normal, this is how married life is, and yet in reality, it's how we cover, how we deceive ourself about the growing apathy and the growing bitterness in the relationship.
Speaker 2:So I want to touch back on something you said, mandy, where you said it's what we came to Breakthrough with. So, just for you listeners, breakthrough is a unique setup in that each couple comes to the workshop with a conversation they're going to break through during the workshop, and then I walk you through a series of sets and you break through the conversation. So you came into Breakthrough and on the first night you discovered, wow, we're at a level eight loneliness, right. So what happened? Like how, how did? What was the Breakthrough?
Speaker 4:what was the breakthrough like in the, in the whole scheme of it, with, with our?
Speaker 2:workshop. Yeah, what, what did you have to shift things for the two of you?
Speaker 4:um, I mean this sounds reductive because it it really took.
Speaker 3:it was a huge process, but basically just realizing that I'm defensive and I need to fix that, and I think maybe for you realizing like I'm critical, you know like it was way more complicated than that, but really it was just starting to own our own stuff, yeah, well, it's so interesting because the way you have it set up is so masterful, because it walks you through each of the steps, and so the first first, like one on one time where you gave us time to, you know, practice, one of the things we talked about we accidentally jumped like to like step four and we're like, oh, this is so frustrating, see, we're never gonna break through, because we we were supposed to pause and you know, and what am I listening for, what are my biases? And we jumped to, like trying to solve a recent thing that had happened, and talk through it Now that we have like one session's worth of tools, let's go ahead and figure out how we can solve this.
Speaker 3:And just turned up into a blow up and we were like man, we're going to be the first couple to fail, breakthrough. But, um, it was so cool because by the end it it was just really cool to see what was possible for us that we could have. We even talked through that very same at the end and it went so much differently. We were able to talk through it and we both felt cared for and, um, just it was awesome because really, we said, we said afterwards, we both, without saying this, went to breakthrough like really excited for the other one to fix themselves so that we could finally have the marriage we wanted. And then we both left breakthrough, realizing that I and Josh, like you, we would say we are our own biggest enemy to having the marriage we want. Like everywhere I go, there I am, what am I up to? Trying to always look right, trying to always look like the one taking the high road, and so, yeah, you did this to us.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so that was really a big realization shift for us.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. So it's easy for Breakthrough to feel like church, camp or summer. Sure, yes, we broke through. Life is never going to be the same. And then you go back and you have a three-year-old and a five-year-old and yeah, they lied to us. None of this works so what happened when you went back home, like, did it stick? Like, what did you need to do to keep getting these results?
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's a great question.
Speaker 4:I think, yeah, I think the just like, the practice of doing it, has led to more connection. So like, even though we've had plenty of like, I would say I don't know what our track record is on like entering into these tensions, that was one of our like goals, leaving it like we're going to intentionally find a sticking point and we're going to have a conversation to practice these things and I don't know what our it's not, it's not high.
Speaker 2:Wait, wait, wait. What, josh, I just want for the male listeners. I want them to hear. You just said we are going to find a time every week to fight. Is that what you just said?
Speaker 4:Yeah, and I, in fact, at Breakthrough, I was like I came up to you separately and I was like, Julia, I feel like the challenge you gave us here's our solution, and I don't know if it's going to work. And you're like, yeah, I think what you mean to say is you should pick a fight every week.
Speaker 3:And I was like okay, I guess we're doing this. Yeah, and we have been doing that.
Speaker 4:We have.
Speaker 3:Yeah, which is it's? You know great, no, I'm just kidding, no, but honestly it's made me feel pursued in a way that I didn't feel pursued. Relationship stronger because we are purposefully, you know, just being honest with each other, not hiding from each other and being open and not just finding our own little safe space apart and and when I I don't know if you feel this way, but like when we intentionally say, okay, are you ready to, like, is now a good time to, you know, have a conversation. It goes so much better with the tools you've given us. Then it just organically coming up because I got triggered by something you did or you noticed something, and decide to mention it right in the moment.
Speaker 4:So, but it's also been in the moment like, yeah, that's true just a few weeks ago. Um, I'm like telling mandy something and she's like, hey, I think you should just like, this is about somebody else, you know, not even between the two of us and you're like you've got something going on there and like I don't know if you can hear it. And I'm like, no, I don't. And um, and but yeah, like, because we've been training, you know, like working that muscle of like maybe I am defensive, I'm like, you know. Two hours later, she's like are you ready to talk about it now? And I'm like, yes, I'm ready to talk about it.
Speaker 3:And so, yeah, like so even those moments have been that that felt like impossible, right like he'll never say that he'll never say.
Speaker 4:I think I was actually, yeah, feeling something and I, you know it. Just I was not giving too much. Okay, I was still like I'm not that defensive, I just have a little bit, but baby steps, you know yeah, yeah, we're baby stepping, yeah.
Speaker 3:So that's been good, uh, picking your attention. And then do you want to say what just happened to us? Should we?
Speaker 4:not, oh sure.
Speaker 3:I mean this week's tension.
Speaker 4:Yeah, it was maybe our hardest one For me.
Speaker 2:I'm not just tension this week.
Speaker 3:It's one that we thought we would never talk about probably.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I think that's what's been refreshing about. It is like like we feel more connected because we are now having conversations that we used to think like stay in your lane, I'll stay in mine and I. Maybe I can hint about that or something, but that's not something that we're going to talk about, um, and I think what we've learned over the last 24 hours, as we've been in this exciting tension, is just that like, um, like even if that's the case that there are things that you don't want my input on, or vice versa, we can approach that in a better place than in the past.
Speaker 3:Learning how to make requests, learning how to negotiate on like this is something that's important to me, right? So yeah, that's been helpful, me and um, so yeah, that's been helpful. And then, even in our biggest fights, I feel like just um. One of the things you taught at breakthrough is what are you present, sitting like who am I being in this moment? And we each got to pick a word, and mine, I picked two because I'm an overachiever, but I put gentle and hopeful and mindless, caring, caring, and so just really having those words in our mind as we're going through them. I didn't meet my word. I didn't meet either of my words, and it's what strikes attention, to be honest.
Speaker 4:And I probably embodied mine in the wrong way. Right, I'm like I'm saying this because I care about you no, I thought you did a good job.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I thought the listeners are on the edge of their seats. Oh yeah, Tension.
Speaker 3:Oh, right, right, right, you probably should. So a couple weeks ago, our tension, we brought up Josh led in with. This is something I'm afraid to say because I'm afraid of all the different implications. You're going to, all the different things. You're going to hear that I'm not saying and so, of course, like my curiosity's peaked, I'm like just say it, say it, I'm ready, I'm presencing gentle, that's what I'm saying. I'm like this is bad, no, and so yeah, well, you can.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I basically was just like I feel like you do a wonderful job of valuing the kids and work and like so many things, but I feel like it's at the expense of, like, your physical health. Like I feel like you don't take care of yourself. You know as well as you could or should. Oh, there I go saying should, yeah, should, um. But yeah, and I was like I I would just love for you to put some more value into that and I like I even said I was like I don't let me should.
Speaker 3:But what I could have done was pause and think about, like what are the things I'm listening for? That I think Josh thinks about me and so this is confirming all of those Like he thinks I'm lazy, he thinks I'm gross, he just wants me to be a size two and I've birthed his children and you know, I'm just in my inner, you know, I am like putting all my walls up. I'm like, well, we were at an eight, like on the loneliness field, then we were two, now I'm an 800. So, yeah, that. But even in that initial conversation this was a couple of weeks ago like really quickly, wouldn't you say pretty quickly for us, it was able to get to. I'm going to choose to hear, with the most generous and compassionate listening ears that I can, that you really just care about me and you want me around and you want me to be present and you think I'm valuable and I deserve like care, like the care that I'm giving to all the other things and not to me, and I'm going to choose to just hear that. And so I was able to say, like you know, I don't disagree with you, I agree, I want to take time for me, I want to do that. But we didn't leave it on any sort of practical. There was no making a commitment to anything. It was just kind of like okay, practical, there was no making a commitment to anything. It was just kind of like okay, great, we survived that conversation, minimal casualties were taken and let's just like move forward.
Speaker 3:So then, fast forward to yesterday. Um, josh says so sweetly, um, we're looking at our calendar. And he's like I would love to give you time to go to the gym before you go on your girls trip. And I, so sweetly, no, I was like you know, I don't know what I said back, but essentially it was like, excuse me, like I'll go to the gym if I want to go to the gym, you don't tell me to go. I'm not, you know.
Speaker 3:Anyway, I took it in all of those ways and Josh meant it in the way of I was trying to help, because you said you cared about this and I care about and yeah, so my inner, I was like really hurt because again, I'm listening for the things that I think he thinks about me, that he says he doesn't think about me. Like I think you're gross, I think you're lazy, I think you need to work out, like lose a few pounds or something. And so that's how I took it and that's I felt. I told him I was like I feel heartbroken because I feel like you're you know, anyway, I feel rejected. And so, yeah, that's when I started putting up. There goes the walls, like you just stay in your lane again. This is too hard. I don't like having conversations about things. And Josh was kind of like maybe, this is something we can't talk about.
Speaker 3:Maybe we just don't talk about it. I'm like yeah, but in the back of my mind I'm like no, I want to be able to talk about everything. So, yeah, just continuing that, that continued. And yeah, getting on the same page. I don't know what else but no, that's good know what else, but no, that's good.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so what shifted? What, like you recognized? Okay, it would be a lot easier just to go back to our own lanes and to decide this is off the table, this one we don't talk about because it goes really poorly. Um, and we talked about this a little before this recording, so I know it didn't end there. So tell me, like what, where'd you go from there? Cause it would be really easy to stay in the hurt and stay in the um judgment of what you believe he is saying. And, josh, for you to judge her like geez, I'm just trying to care, and you know what other husband out there would ever offer to say, hey, I'll watch the kids so you can go take, have some self care. I got the husband of the year and you can't see it.
Speaker 4:Oh man, I'm always giving myself that award.
Speaker 2:So what happened?
Speaker 4:Yeah, I think, um, I mean, you can speak into this, but I think the biggest thing was just persistence and being like this is not where we want to leave this. It took a lot of like. I mean really feeling like we were just banging our heads against the wall, like I'm saying this and she's like I'm saying this and it's like, well, why are you know? And finally, I think the breakthrough in this conversation was the realization that we were having two different conversations. Conversation was the realization that we were having two different conversations. Um and like, I finally realized like, oh, you think that I am saying you're gross and you think that I'm, you know, saying these things that she's hearing in her head. And I had to be like whoa, like that is not. You know where I'm, where I'm at with this and um, and it took like a lot of reaffirming those things, you know.
Speaker 4:And I think the other part of that too is like just to be really real, like it's hard once you've heard all those things in your head, like I'm like I didn't say that. Can we go back to normal now? And it's like, no, we can't just snap our fingers and go back to normal. Like you know, there's a process through that. So I I think that was it was realizing this. There's two different conversations and then having to really reaffirm things, um, on both sides, right, like, like you had to, I had to say I don't agree with those things that you are saying, like that's not what I'm saying. And you had to also then convince yourself to like that's not what he's saying.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah. And I think that the biggest difference of what got us through to the other side of the conversation is I saw in you like I think you you present the word caring like your word that you wanted to commit to because you were. You persisted in like pursuing the conversation, um, instead of just shutting down and being like I'm sorry, I'll never bring that up again, my bad Um, and moving on, like going back to that apathy that was like Josh is. For people who know him well, they'd be like oh, he's unflappable, he doesn't have his happy is like I'm happy. His sad is like I'm sad.
Speaker 3:So there's like this it's nice to say your emotional range is moving her fingers, but um, so and uh, just like really showing emotion of like being passionate about I don't think that about you. I think you are, you know, yeah, amazing and beautiful and all these and um, really pushing through, whereas before, when we've we've never had this conversation because we knew like this one would do damage, like this is one to avoid. But, um, before, when we've had similar conversations, you would be when I would tell you I was hurt by something you were so concerned at how I perceived you, so concerned with telling me like how you would never say something like that and defending your own, like trying to, you know, get me to think like, oh no, you know, right, yeah, it's very defensive.
Speaker 4:Yeah, just like.
Speaker 3:no, I'm not that type of person, I would never.
Speaker 4:But this felt like in the conversation you cared more about me and my like hurt than about looking good in the conversation, trying to protect and then I could be wrong about this, but I don't think that so much of the way that conversation went was was really so different than maybe how it would have gone in the past, but I think that we've had this practice of like, of of caring for one another, so it's much easier for you to hear the caring yeah, it's like I don't believe it, because I've been experiencing it Like we've been practicing it in smaller doses.
Speaker 3:Yeah that's true, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's so much I want to unpack in what you guys are saying because it's so powerful, and I want to. I want to make a few specific distinctions. So first, uh, what's coming to me is the statement that the relationship we have with ourselves sets the tone for every other relationship that we have. And so, Mandy, what I heard you and I had a little conversation about this offline, and what I heard you recognizing is you stopped to listen for what you were listening for, and you realize that what you were actually listening for is you were shaming yourself through Josh. You were using Josh to shame you. So what you were hearing him say was the messages you have said you judge yourself with. So you imagine he judges you right, and so it's so powerful to be able to.
Speaker 2:You know, you guys were saying earlier that, like we came to breakthrough, for our spouse to change, for them to get it right, but because the relationship that we have with ourself is what sets the tone for the, for the marriage, that's where the work must be is how am I relating to myself in this conversation, even though I think it's my spouse who's relating to me that way? Is that actually what they're saying, or is that what I think they think about me? Because that's what I think about me. Yeah, so that's such a powerful concept of like. Why the fights that we have? Like I on a coaching call today and the couple was struggling because they have this belief that when their spouse is upset, that it's up to them to fix it. And I'm like. The problem is is that your spouse is upset Isn't about you, Even if they say it is about you, it's not about you. Their upset is their own relationship with themselves and you just touched in on a bruised spot or a bit scary or a bit uncomfortable is you're developing a ability within yourself and with each other to really see the care and passion and love and commitment to the relationship that you cannot see that when you're net flicking every night, and you know that when you're net flicking every night and Uber eats and you don't see that because you're just so busy doing life.
Speaker 2:So the other thing that I wanted to touch in on is it's easy to say, well, I should have listened to the relationship with myself first, but instead we got defensive and we went off for a whole night or two weeks or whatever. You're never going to change that you're human and this is the way it works. And the thing I always ask people is think about where would you have been three months ago or a year ago if you tried to have that conversation and it could have ended the marriage? You only stayed upset for two hours or two weeks, Like. That's massive growth. You're willing to navigate conversations you never would have been willing to navigate before and you find your way through to deeper connection. That's a win in every single way. There is no failure in that whatsoever.
Speaker 3:Oh, thank you. Yes, I agree. Yeah, definitely felt different, felt like, okay, we made that, we made it through that one. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I sit here listening, really excited for what I see in the two of you, and I don't want to put words in your mouth, so I'm going to ask you this question what do you have with each other now, in just the last eight to 10 weeks, what do you have with each other that you didn't even realize was missing?
Speaker 4:I think we both came into marriage with an idea lives was missing. I think we both came into marriage with an idea, like a much more independent view of like I don't want to project that I need you for almost anything, like like we're living together and I love you, but, um, but I don't need you, um, and so I think that was like that was a big um, like just realization, something to open up for us of like okay, not only like, is it okay to like recognize the fact that, like I actually need something from you, I need connection from you, but but like to to then kind of seek that out, like where are things that we need each other and how can we have a conversation about that? So I think that's brought a lot of connection for me.
Speaker 3:Yeah, mine is similar that your brain wants to recreate the past, like what you've seen, because it's a pathway in your brain and it's much easier to autopilot recreate what you've seen than to forge a new path. And so, and you invited us to look down the line, where does that take you if you do that? And I just thought, oh, my goodness, Like I didn't think we were going anywhere. I thought we were just kind of like chilling in the same spot, but kind of the idea that if you're not moving towards one another, you are drifting apart, however slowly or quickly that may be. So, just, I feel like it gave me a vision for what could be, what would be if we didn't make steps. And then we got to craft a vision of like what, what could be. And so that's where my word hopeful comes, because it's like, oh, we don't have to just live out what we've seen, we don't have to just, you know, kind of coast to the finish line. We can create something that is special.
Speaker 3:So I think the need was big, um, I think, um, the I just have received like more care. I feel like I got in my spouse, like I got from josh, like a care, um, and like a tenderness I feel, like that I didn't know would be possible, and then I thought I'd been asking for, and then and saying, like I just need this from you, um, but yeah, and we talked about grieving, and so I feel like at Breakthrough, you invited us to grieve. Grief is the water that softens this hard soil of apathy, and that was really powerful for me. So I feel like I've gotten.
Speaker 3:This morning, when I was walking, I went on a walk and just to pray and think about, like our tension we were in last night before we, before we were going to pick it up today and you know, get to the finish. And, um, I was just walking and I just the word like grieve came to me and I just was walking and just gave myself time to just sit in. Like grieve, that like this is not perfect, it's not the way that. That it you know that I think it should be or, um, yeah, that we hurt each other and I love Josh the most, but I can be the most careless with him, and so so, anyway, just I think that's been a powerful thing too. So, like lots of different things, yeah.
Speaker 2:Beautiful. Yeah, I just see the two of you. I see this friendship and this um and that doesn't mean that wasn't always there, but this friendship of pioneering something new, this friendship of co-creating and going where no one has gone before you, in your own lineage, and choosing to trust each other and need each other. And I am so excited to see what comes out of that for the two of you and for your children.
Speaker 3:Thank you. We're excited too, and hopeful.
Speaker 2:Oh, you guys are awesome. Thank you so much. I think there is so much gold in this for anyone who listens, and thank you for giving of yourself and your vulnerability and honesty and sharing with us.
Speaker 3:Thanks, julia, we're so grateful for you. You.