Hey Julia Woods
Join me, Julia Woods, a couples coach and wife of over 3 decades, as I share some of my client's stories and my own so that you can be encouraged, inspired, and gain new results in your marriage.
Hey Julia Woods
She's a Control-Freak! He's Unreliable!
Joe and Em had four kids, full-time careers, and a system that worked—on the surface. But behind the schedules and chores, they were lonely and disconnected.
In today’s Hey Julia Woods episode, they share how their marriage drifted into survival mode—and how one simple habit brought it back to life: daily emotional check-ins.
By asking, “What did you feel angry about today?” they stopped avoiding conflict and started building trust again.
Their story is raw, relatable, and full of hope for couples stuck in the logistics trap.
Join us at Beautiful Outcome's Breakthrough Retreats to learn practical tools for transforming tension in your marriage into opportunities for deeper connection.
https://beautifuloutcome.com/retreat-sept-25
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💥💥Everything you need to grow the marriage you long for is waiting for you in the Marriage Growth Community:
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Welcome to hey Julia Woods podcast. I'm your host, Julia Woods, founder of Beautiful Outcome, a coaching company focused on helping couples learn to see and understand each other, even in the most difficult conversations. On my podcast, I will share with you the real and raw of the messiness and amazingness of marriage. I'll share with you aspects of my relationship and the couples I coach in a way that you can see yourself and find the tools that you need to build the marriage you long for.
Speaker 2:Welcome to. Hey, julia Woods. I am so excited you are here for this episode. I am so excited for you to get to connect with this couple, joe and Em. I call her Em. Her name's Emily, but she's always going to be Em to me. I have been working with this couple for I don't know seven, eight.
Speaker 2:However old, maybe longer, yeah, a long time in coaching and they have been a part of the team that helped me launch into Breakthrough four years ago and have faithfully attended, and I am just so excited that they are here and going to share some of their story with us. So thanks for joining us, joe and Em.
Speaker 4:Thank you for having us. What an honor.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, so you guys have been. I'm trying to think of when breakthrough started. Breakthrough started in 2021. So, yes, you've been to four breakthroughs. You've just signed up for your fifth one, and so that's really where I want to focus the conversation, because, for me, I've walked with you guys in coaching for a long time and I've seen steady progress and there's something unique for you two that I see jumps through breakthrough, like some big jumps in some breakthroughs you've had as you've attended breakthrough. Would you agree with that?
Speaker 3:I would say definitely. I think the first couple of breakthroughs, um, we kind of focused, we, we made huge progress on like one specific like conversation. I think this past breakthrough we walked away with um kind of confidence going into like okay, we can really apply this to like every area of our relationship and how we communicate with each other. Um, but yet it was. I feel like our, our takeaways this year were actually a little more basic. May not be the right word, but um, applicable tangible, yeah.
Speaker 4:Useful, yeah, yeah. Practical practical is like the word I'd come.
Speaker 3:I would say yeah, and just things that we didn't realize were missing in our communication and specifically in like conflict with each other. Missing in our communication and specifically in like conflict with each other. It's like, oh, we've never really taken the time to look at, like, what are we each actually feeling in this moment and how is it impacting how I'm, how I'm talking to him, how I'm even looking at him, um, my tone, you know all those different things, and it's like, well, what is at him, my tone, you know all those different things. And it's like, well, what is what's really happening for me inside, like, what am I feeling? And I think just the invitation to like dig into what's happening for each of us in those moments was like kind of mind blowing. I'm like, oh, that's actually very helpful to do. We should do that more often.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yes, yeah, for context for the listeners, can you guys just share kind of day-to-day life? What's it look like Kids, where you live, what you do, just so people can relate to? You're busy.
Speaker 4:Sure, we are very human. We have four beautiful children, we are ages eight and both of us work full-time. M is the ceo of her sister's education business and I'm a branch manager for a local commercial landscaper in richmond, virginia, and we are very involved with a variety of things. We are committed to some awesome opportunities, like our church and our families and hobbies. We have a full scale life.
Speaker 3:On the side, we helped start a school for our kids.
Speaker 4:Yeah, so we're just, we're in it.
Speaker 4:You know everybody talks about their life being busy and we have said that before and you know we have the dramas and the breakdowns, like everybody else, within our own children, within our marriage, within our businesses. It is very much a real life, day-to-day busyness, and can be chaos, and yet also beautiful. We've built a life that has represented what we care about. We love God, we love our family. We really want to make an impact in our community here in Richmond and we're doing that. We're doing life with our neighbors, who are our friends, and it's far from perfect, but it's a constant go button and, julia, we've told you before, I don't know if anybody does as much as we do. We kind of put ourselves on that pedestal at times but realistically, it's just because we know that what we're doing is important and it's significant and we are finding our meaning and we're making that impact that, slowly but surely, we want to make on this world and obviously through our children and through our home. And yeah, there's a lot of moving parts.
Speaker 3:But with all those, with all those moving parts, we are kind of like the perfect storm for like. If we're not in a great spot, it's very easy to just kind of function as co-parents and like okay, let's review the calendar of like. These are the things that we've got going on. You do this dentist appointment, I'll do this baseball game, we'll do you know.
Speaker 4:Yeah, it can be very mechanical very quickly.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 4:Mechanical, being like what Em just said, the logistics are handled and there's not a lot of any time of real connection or intentionality a lot of any time of real connection or intentionality.
Speaker 4:Yeah, that it does take intentional, yeah, pursuit from both of us to actually connect and go deeper than just logistics sure, and we both experience that differently too, like in the day-to-day right, like I have this that looks intentional and connected to me, and m has a different way of experiencing that, and so you have two humans that are trying to do that together along with four smaller humans and then along with the extended family around us and the extended employees and team members around us. And yeah, there's yeah to Em's point. It can very quickly become a transactional experience when we're out of sync and we've experienced that, you know, for the past 11 years at different seasons, and we've also experienced the deep meaningful connection as well in that. But yeah, life definitely has been happening. We've moved a lot, we've changed careers a lot. Things have happened at scale.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah. So what you just shared, the combination of what the two of you shared, really brings us to the heart of the conversation, in that you have been sharing with me lately that you have shifted from the easiest place to need each other is in logistics. Especially with four small children and very busy lives, it's very easy to shift your relationship into I need you logistically because I need two more hands, and yet needing each other emotionally, spiritually, intellectually, that can often become a very depleted place in couples' lives, and so you've been sharing with me, um, you know what you're discovering was missing in your day-to-day life, and so will you guys share a little bit more about, um, about that, and we'll jump off from there.
Speaker 3:Yeah, Um, I mean, I think for me well, really for both of us, but I'll speak just for me. Walking away from Breakthrough this past April was one of the biggest takeaways for me was just being introduced to the idea of, like there's kind of set core feelings and like, if we can, in every situation, take the time to look at, like OK, what am I truly feeling right now? Am I feeling angry or sad or upset or glad? Like what? What is it? Um, that's been huge for me because I think I have gotten to a place more recently of like the busyness of life and all of that. I would easily kind of push what I'm feeling to the back burner and not go there. Um, an example of that I would easily kind of push what I'm feeling to the back burner and not go there.
Speaker 4:Do you want to give an example of that, like how that, how that looks practically.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think. I think thinking like a day-to-day example would be we're getting the kids ready in the morning, it's chaotic and crazy, joe doesn't do something that I'm expecting him to do, and in that moment I feel anger towards him or I feel upset towards him, and I think I had kind of gotten into the habit of pushing that down. But he could tell something's off with her, like we're not. You know, is she mad at me, is she? And then it's a guessing game for him of, like what's going on with him? What did I do to make her mad?
Speaker 4:um, but in my camp I also you know it's the chaos of four small kids in the morning and I'm also fighting my own uh, like emotions or experiencing my own emotions in that same process. So not mean to interrupt, but I'm, I'm thinking to myself like this is, this is nuts. I, I'm tired, I'm still. I have all these other things that I need to do for my job and all you know I'm thinking about me and so even wanting I, if I'm honest it sounds so brash, but it is very real there's moments where I'm like I just don't care, like just get the ball.
Speaker 3:Let her be mad.
Speaker 4:Well, you know it's real life, like there's moments where I have genuinely felt that or said that to myself, like it is what it is and that's not okay or appropriate, I would say. But that was definitely the human response on my end. Whenever I could see some of those moments.
Speaker 2:When we feel this verbal communication of something's off, the easiest place to go is to not care, to go to apathy, and the more apathetic we get, the less we care that the disconnection is growing. And the further apart we get as a couple and we just learn to completely rely on each other for logistical needs. And then that gets even harder because the bitterness and the resentment keeps building up and it's like well, we keep breaking commitments to each other and having attitudes when we ask each other to do things, and the further apart each person gets from the other until you find well, I could handle all these logistics on my own, I don't really need them anymore, anyway my own.
Speaker 4:I don't really need them anymore anyway. Yep, yep, and the apathy is so you can fool a lot of people, but most importantly, you're fooling yourself because from the outside, looking in, it still looks like a good life. We still have four children, we still have full-time jobs, everything is good, go to church, you play the game right, even between the two of us, between, like in front of the kids, it's still. Life is overall pretty good, right and so. But and I'll just speak for myself even I'm saying like well, I still got her, you know, she still got me. And work, you fool, I can fool myself, I know what I'm capable of and I can enroll the community around me in very small ways. I can take little jabs towards them at work and say things, and you know even just the things that nobody would notice and even question. And so, like you're to your point, julia, the, the gap gets wider and wider because you're just adding to the block of the builds, the wall between the two of you.
Speaker 3:And I know for me, like I, I would really keep score of like okay, well, he, he didn't help with this and instead of talking about it and figuring out, like what is that making me feel in this moment? And like can I actually bring myself to share that, I would just keep that all inside and then we'd go our separate ways to do our work day. We'd come back together and he'd be later getting home than I thought and I'm like oh, there's another example of like he's disappointing me, or like not doing what he said that he would do, and um, and that would just like build and grow. And I think the the gift that has come from breakthrough has been us being able to and we're not perfect at it. There's plenty of times that it's like oh, shoot, we probably should have done that.
Speaker 3:But I think the gift has been that we have been able to practice in those moments of feeling something, recognizing hmm, I'm feeling something, something just shifted for me, and being able to say like hey, I feel like I need to share this with you, or for him to notice it in me and say, hey, are you okay? Can we check in? Like is there? Did something happen? They like brought up something and I think that has led to some awesome conversations, and sometimes even just being able to do that diffuses the tension that was starting to like fester and grow there and it's like, oh, that really didn't need to snow, snowball into this massive thing that would probably turn into a fight later. If we're able to just say like, hey, you know it. Really. It really upset me when this happened and I'm feeling like all, all of the weight is on me and like I'm fully getting everybody ready in the morning and you're just worrying about yourself, and that makes me believe that you don't care and makes me think that like it's all on me, and to be able to have a conversation about it instead of just brushing it aside and then the same thing happened the next day Um, I think has been a huge shift for us more recently.
Speaker 4:Yeah Well, and even just to add to that the can I share some examples. Well, it's just because we've this, because we've done a dance a certain way, that has caused the gap that we experienced and the breakdowns that we were tolerating for over a decade, like we were doing these dances for over a decade and we were calling it normal and until it broke Right. And so, historically, as a parent so parenting wise of the two of us I, up until now, have really had the tendency to get pretty angry with our children whenever they disobey or break a rule. So I respond a little bit more hot and heavy whenever Micah, our eight-year-old, will talk back to him and he's an eight-year-old, of course he's going to talk back to Em. I talked back to my mother whenever I was eight and when I was in 30, too, and so it's normal.
Speaker 4:But whenever he would do that, I would find myself getting like I could feel the water boiling inside of me.
Speaker 3:And.
Speaker 4:I would just burst. And you do not talk to your mother like that. My tone would get hot, my emotions, my physical, you know, presence and expression would be very intense to him and m, historically, has responded a far more generously and graciously in her parenting and how she relates to the kids whenever they disobey. And you know, to m's point that she mentioned before she keeping score, me keeping score because I'm thinking that she's not doing enough as a parent. She's thinking that I'm doing too much as a parent.
Speaker 4:But instead of doing what we have learned recently to do, we just corrected each other so it would lead to, it would literally blow up at micah yeah, and then I would blow up at you for blowing up at him right and I'm, I'm like you're too much and I'm getting pissed off at M because I'm like now I'm displaying two people One's a child, the other one's an adult and so this is like me getting on my high horse and I'm just adding more beliefs to my own and really I'm just not being honest with Micah about how I'm relating to him. And really the practical application that we experienced at Breakthrough was this concept of pausing, em stepping in graciously, touching my shoulder very gently and saying hey, in her tone, can I step in? Or hey, can we take a break? Or hey, can I help you? Just giving me that generousness in her tone and in her request to let me feel the freedom to step away from that conversation so that I could come back into a conversation with micah as a father who's in love with his son.
Speaker 4:I like, I love him and I I want him to. I don't want him to, I don't want him to make the mistakes that I've made. And so I have come to realize that I was, in my anger, covering up the scaredness that I have for my son making poor choices that could lead to significant consequences beyond our home, and so I don't want him to suffer like that. And so was my response appropriate? No, was it constructive? No, and I also am realizing that I was just relating to him in a way that was my own hurt and my own fears, and this pausing and checking in and letting an M at another time, when it was appropriate, saying, hey, how are you feeling? Like, what were you feeling in that Joe? Like okay, it literally came to my mind I'm actually scared, I'm actually really sad, and that's what I'm feeling.
Speaker 3:The anger is just a coverup of the breakdown, and I think too, like learning that like our feelings can have like an impaired state or a gifted state has been super helpful for us, because I mean up until probably April, I never thought that anger could have like a positive side. It was like all anger is bad, and so when Joe shows up in anger with the kids, it's like, oh well, now he's messing up and he's wrong.
Speaker 3:Um, which in sometimes it is sometimes it is more from an impaired state and it's more like rage.
Speaker 3:But I think in like those situations with Micah for us to be able to talk about, like what were you feeling in that moment? And like maybe it was anger, and then for him to share that it's like because I don't like seeing him disrespect you, and like it's because of how much I love you that I'm struggling with how he's treating you, and that kind of softens my heart towards him. Of like oh, I understand more now why this is so upsetting to you. Like it's not just you have a quick temper and like you just get mad so easily at the kids. It's like no, it's because you love me that you're trying to defend me with our son. And like help him learn how to respect me, learn how to respect me. And so I think being able to see different sides of like, what we're feeling of like is what we're feeling really coming from like a healthy, genuine state, or is it coming from something that needs to be looked at a little deeper? Um, I think has been.
Speaker 4:Yeah, the emotions, the you know, julia, one of the things that was really helpful at breakthrough was the list of emotions that you provided for us, were the list that we stick to because it kind of keeps us in agreement of the wording, right, I say how you're feeling and I can take that a million different directions and everybody can go thank you for sharing. And you're like, but that doesn't mean anything. Like, but that's not, that doesn't mean anything. And so common language in that list has kept us honest with each other and clear with one another, because we can understand that whenever she says something you know something outside of that list. Then I get to usher her back in and say like babe, I love you. That didn't relate to the words that we've agreed upon here and it's not that we're trying to be mechanical, I'm like.
Speaker 3:well, I want Julia's list to have more words.
Speaker 4:Yeah, that's very normal, like totally normal, and it's not to say that we'll never add words to this list right now, but for the time being it's a very applicable list of real human emotions that are very normal and they help us ground ourselves in the conversation so that we're not rifting and maybe even trying to justify how we're actually feeling or try to sell something that may be a cover-up to what's really going on.
Speaker 2:Yeah, all right, so we have. There is a smorgasbord of opportunities in what you guys have shared so far. So when I listen and I think about the listener and what would be most valuable, I think about what you were describing about a decade of patterns, a decade of a system of the nonverbal communication being scary, being lonely, being like wait, they're upset with me. Okay, what do I do? Whatever they're upset, it is what it is, let's just keep moving.
Speaker 2:Okay, I have experienced that deeply in my marriage and and and kind of had come to the point of okay, this is just how marriage is, um, and in coaching a lot of couples, I find a lot of couples in that place. So I want to kind of come back to that season, like back to what does it look like to have had a system of just logistically working life together? Like what was the despair? What was it like? What do you recognize it was costing you? There's tons of opportunities of where we could go with that, but just what comes up for you when you think about if you were to let yourself go to that place and articulate that for the world of marriages?
Speaker 4:I think, for me, the first thing that stands out is the thing that we tolerated. I know I tolerated was I get to stay in my comfort zone and I get to push the things that are outside of my comfort zone to M parenting, cooking logistics. These are things that Em, when we compare apples to apples, is more inclined to enjoy than I am.
Speaker 3:And I would gladly take all of it from you.
Speaker 4:Yes, yeah, so here's how I would look. I know that Em's capable of taking care of the kids really really well For her. She knows the logistics about what is needed all the things, all their schedules, the medicines, everything. And logistics about what is needed all the things, all their time, all their schedules and medicines, everything. And and I'm like, well, m's got it, I don't need to worry about it. So I get to get out of the responsibility of being a parent to my own children because I know that I don't have to be uncomfortable in in supporting her, supporting the children, understanding their rhythms. And it's not to mean that I need to know every single thing. But am I attempting, am I standing for my integrity as a parent, to put forth my best effort? I was not putting in my best effort. I was putting in the effort that got me by, that kept them happy and kept the kids alive.
Speaker 3:Frankly, happy and kept the kids alive. Frankly, that was it would kind of be like you. You would kind of sit on the sidelines and wait for me to make a request of something for you to do yeah, instead of taking initiative with like hey, we're equal partners in this right and and I mean personally it worked great for me. Like I love. I love being in control of stuff. And so, um, I got to what I was getting out of. That was like, all right, I'm in charge of everything. Everyone reports to me, including my husband, and in a lot of ways, it essentially made him like another child of like okay, I'm going to give you a list of things like to do, or like only make requests of things that are needed.
Speaker 3:Really, looking, it's such a lonely way to live that it's very isolating to be like, oh, I'm putting all of this on me and I'm choosing that like it's not. It's not something, that it's not something that I hated. I actually actually liked functioning that way, but the reality was it was costing me so much. It was costing us deeper connection. It was starting to show up in our kids reaching ages, of them noticing decision. They would say things to Joe of like well, yeah, but what? What would mama say? Or like, well, let's check with mama. And it's like no, no, no, no. If if he says yes or no to something, like we're a team, so like his, no, it's a no for me too, like you can't turn us against each other, but I think they would try to do because they're kids and they're smart but they were seeing the holes in our system.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. So what you guys are talking about is, it's the very advanced work of having worked through. Uh, you, you've broke through this tension and you, in part of breaking through, is looking at okay, if I say I hate this system, I say I hate that he doesn't help more or that she needs to control everything. But we, that's the complaints that we have. But underneath it, we, if we'll get honest with ourself and humble ourself, we begin to see oh, wait a minute, I actually want this system the way it is, because here's what I get out of it.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, yeah, you guys are sharing that side of it, which is what's considered a responsibility mindset, because we're either in a victim mindset, where we look for someone or something to blame and this is happening to me because of what this person or this thing is doing or we look from a responsibility mindset that says, hey, this is happening for me, it's wanting to show me and teach me growth, offer me growth and I'm contributing to it. So, even if I'm only contributing 5%, let me take a hundred percent for the contributions I'm making, because that's gives me the ability to shift. So let's go back to the victim mindset. So what did that look like Like what? Did it sound like Like what was the day to day? How did what? Did the loneliness feel like?
Speaker 3:And how did it? Yeah, it's. It's no fun to go back there.
Speaker 4:Yeah, but it is. It is real life and it is very human.
Speaker 2:Popcorn, it is yes.
Speaker 4:Yes, well, pull up a chair, you might need to. There might be longer of an interview than you thought, but yeah, I. I think the how did it look like, practically speaking, was in my mind. I would write m off as this um control freak like m's just has high these high, you know standards, you know she's from the south.
Speaker 4:This is like a southern thing. This is ridiculous, you know, like what the heck. You know, why can't you just this is all presentation to me, why who cares? And so like I would make her the bad guy in my mind, I would never say that to her because that's rude, right, that's mean.
Speaker 3:But I would say why do you care so much?
Speaker 4:I would say that, but I mean, but the more the most of the conversation was happening in my mind in the day-to-day, because I would just be like this isn't I know I'm gonna lose this battle because I'm gonna share my feedback or I'm gonna talk back to her and she's just gonna get on me and she's gonna. She's crazy, she's well, the thing that we I have claimed, uh, up until now for a while, is the james train. Her m's maiden name is james, is the james family, and I have this story in my mind that whenever m, in this case, has an opinion, it's just going to happen and the train's coming to town and you can't stop it, and so, whether it's the color of the walls or the number of children you have to have or we're removing, you pick. Well, you know, but this is like the real. This is jul. You asked where this is going, you asked and you received Okay good, it's got to be my way.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4:Okay, so you made an important distinction.
Speaker 2:You said I would never say that to her, right, my wife's a control freak, she's got to have it a certain way. You said I would never say that to her because that's rude, all right, but the point is, is that communication is 90% nonverbal? Yeah, you didn't verbally say it to her, but how did you make her pay, like, how did you communicate it to her in ways that you knew that it was hurting her? But you gave yourself permission because, after all, you're dealing with a control freak, right? So you're telling yourself um, so we may not speak it verbally, but we speak it non-verbally. What did that look like, joe? You would make her pay for it.
Speaker 3:Can I tell you what it looked like from the receiving end?
Speaker 4:Sure yeah sure, why not?
Speaker 3:I mean, I experienced you like you would look very annoyed or just like you looked frustrated and you wouldn't say it and you would like go along with it and be agreeable with, like your actions or like the task at hand. But like I could tell just by looking at you that it's like, oh, he's so mad at me for this. Or like he thinks I'm crazy, but he's not. But he's so mad at me for this. Or like he thinks I'm crazy, but he's not.
Speaker 4:But he's not gonna tell me so like it was very visible just with your body language of how there was also yeah that's yeah yeah, but I think also, the other thing that comes to my mind is uh, I would break my promises all the time, like what? Pick a task, pick up a kid, finish a home project, be at home by a certain time, have this conversation with this individual, complete this work assignment, fill out this form for taxes. The list goes on. And I would constantly break my promises all the time because I knew that I kind of had a safety net or at the very least, I was doing what I wanted to do and I was putting her in her place.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And that's really what the story you're telling yourself is she's over the top, she's, you know, she's crazy, she's too much, and you'd give yourself permission to say, well, I don't have to do that because she's. You'd give yourself permission to say, well, I don't have to do that because she's, she's just too excessive in what she's doing, or whatever, which then in turn him gives you like, see, he's not reliable. So I gotta be more in control, I gotta do.
Speaker 3:I can't count on him.
Speaker 4:He didn't do this so I've got to do it and I can't trust him to do what he says he's going to do. That was huge, that breakdown of trust. Julia. You said the consequences, the byproducts. There has been a story between the two of us of I'm not trustable, she can't rely on me. Finances, relationships, children just big decisions, small decisions. And that's a belief that I've contributed to, because I was in fact breaking trust with Em towards Em, towards, ultimately, myself, and I was just pushing it onto her. And so you know that's a significant, that is a wounding and for me at least, that came with a lot of, you know, deep fears and sadness. Hearing from M like, hey, I don't trust you. I remember very vividly like just being overwhelmed with emotions and anger and sadness and scaredness and like that statement being said.
Speaker 3:Well, and I think what's hard about it is that any level or like a lack of trust I think can hurt the same way. But like I would tell him, I trust you with, like you know, the safety of our children, or like the safety of our home, and like I trust that you love me and the kids, like those things, like I know those like big things, but it's breakdowns and trust in the little things that are just compiling and turning into this mess and this storm of a situation of like. Okay, I asked if you could. Just I'm trying to think of a good example. I mean, this is more recent with building the garden fence.
Speaker 4:This garden is going to be the death of us. It's also going to produce new life, which is so ironic really.
Speaker 3:Yeah, like we're working. We have a garden in the backyard and for I don't know. Pretty much since last spring, we've been talking about needing to build a legit fence around it, because we live out in the woods, there's deer all the ground and we had multiple fights about it and ultimately ended up in conversations about like I feel like I can't rely on you to help with projects like this, because, unless it's your idea, if it's his idea, he's all in and we'll make it happen. If it's my idea, it's immediately met with resistance and met with like well, I'm going to do this. When I want to do it and I'm like OK, fine, then I'll do it myself. I'll order the lumber from Home Depot and I'll rope in my dad to come over and like help me build this. And I know that that'll like really get him.
Speaker 1:I'm like all right, I'll ask somebody else for help them.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'm like, all right, I'll ask somebody else for help. Um, and I think if, if that same fight had happened a couple years ago, you would have just gone out, done the fence, we never would have really talked about it. It would have just created this tension, and I think instead there's been a lot of opportunities, even in still having the frustration, because, like the frustrations are never going to go away, like we're still going to have those moments of like, oh, she's a control freak or oh, he's not reliable. But like we got to choose like, hey, let's actually talk about it, or like, are you OK? I feel like you're really frustrated, the way that you're putting those posts in, like you seem upset right now. Can we talk about, like, what's going on? Um, and so I think it's well. I'm back to like how, how we've grown in it from one other thing that I wanted to share, backtracking a little bit to like the victim side of it.
Speaker 3:Um, I think something that I loved about the system and how it was working for me was and in a lot of ways, like there was no accountability for me, like it was everything is how I want it to be. I'm the end all be all for all decisions. Everybody reports to me and so there's no one. Like the selfish part of me likes not happening to, like have another opinion to consider or like have somebody to actually say hey, you know, I don't know if that's the best way. Can we talk about other options? It was always like no, I will figure it out and my way is the best way, which. Saying that is so cringy, like it's just hard to say. But I.
Speaker 4:It makes sense, though, because if you think about the roles that you have climbed to CEO of a business, a mother of four children there's a lot of things that you have. That control is a very powerful gift and it's a really powerful resource. It makes her successful in the day to day, and it also makes sense that it has both the light and dark side, and I contributed to day, and you know it also makes sense that it has both the light and dark side, and I contributed to that. The people around you contribute to that, wanting to give you control, because they know that you're very capable.
Speaker 4:I always tell everybody M's M superpower is she. She can just do Tetris in her brain with anything and give her the problem. She can solve it, she can figure it out she, and if she doesn't know how to, she will find a way, and that is a super power. And also, with that power comes a control of the variables and being able to put them into places, and I would want to give her that control. So I would want to be treated like a child, because if she messed up, then who do I get to blame? Yep, I get to look at her and go. Hey, yeah, you remember that great idea. That was stupid, cost us money, cost us time. Look at this dumb thing.
Speaker 3:But he wouldn't actually say that, he would just think it all.
Speaker 4:I would just keep it in my mind right and the trust void would just further from one another. So I contributed to it. The people around us have contributed, it's both hands. This is like highly relational stuff that we're talking about.
Speaker 2:I think it's very, very common in marriages. I mean this is the system my husband and I try it have created and lived out of in a lot of ways and it's very common in the couples that I coach.
Speaker 4:So, julia, can I ask a question to you in that? One of the things that I think that we you know as an example is decision-making whenever like new ideas. Cause this is how it just goes back to like how this operated so historically and I know that you, you and Jeff, have shared this with us graciously so we have M's. Whenever M presents an idea like M wants to build a garden, I'm like, great, sounds good. I mean we're building a garden, okay, cool. Uh, I present a idea Well, how about this thing? Did you think about that? Did you process this decision? Is that too much money, you know? And I'm like, wait a second, I I don't. But it's like the both. It's. This is kind of how the dance looks, right, like, hey, we want more children, okay, sounds good, you know. And uh, hey, let's buy a new car. Do we have the? Do we have money in the bank to buy a new car?
Speaker 3:and it's just this dance that we that if your ideas are met with a question quote unquote resistance even if it's a curious question and I'm just trying to like understand his idea, better it immediately she's judging me down.
Speaker 4:Yeah, she's judging me harshly. That's how I, because I'm like I, I don't question you, so. So what's your question? You're?
Speaker 2:describing the byproduct of the system. So the system you set up is M is the one who does all of the processing, the negotiating, the looking at logistics. How does this work? How does this not work? You're the one that goes along with the plan, right? That's basically the system that you described, you built. So it makes sense, when you come to making decisions, that she's going to do what she does, which is well, let's look at logistics, let's look at this realistically. Is this a good idea or a bad idea? Right, and you're going to go along with whatever plan she presents.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:It's where a lot of the suffering shows up. It's aware, a lot of the bitterness that you each build with each other shows up in this system. Is that, um, and and ultimately, the beauty of shifting to a system of negotiating, a system where you actually need each other emotionally, spiritually, intellectually this begins to go away because you actually begin to see each other as a resource. That's like, let me hear, here's an idea let's both honestly own. Am I bought into that idea?
Speaker 2:And here's the concerns, that here's the places I feel fear about that idea and you actually begin to work to see each other as a balanced resource to one another in a system of partnership.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And so I think it's a very common thing that couples deal with but don't recognize. It's simply a system of the imbalance of meeting each other, connecting in partnership and negotiating this crazy life that we all signed up for.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So as I think about here we go from, I think what you guys have articulated is so powerful. I think so many couples will resonate with what you just described as the day-to-day life of how it looked. And then, at the beginning, we were talking about how now, all of a sudden, every day, you know you work to check in and share what you're feeling and you deal with things when they're small, like guys we're talking about years apart from each other, like those are two completely different extremes that I imagine most listeners resonate with the second part and they're like tell me how you got to the first part that you shared, because that's what we want.
Speaker 2:So how did you go from sharing feelings to, all of a sudden, oh, we're building a system of partnership.
Speaker 3:The answer is Julia.
Speaker 4:Yes, breakthrough, go, it's awesome.
Speaker 3:You need Julia and Breakthrough in your life. You will not regret it.
Speaker 4:But, joking aside, really, like it does. You cannot. You are not designed to do this alone, Period. We, em and I, cannot do this thing called life together alone. So I think there's a genuine humility that I would. I would really pray that every person listening to this would deeply consider that you are not capable of doing this by yourself. And that's okay, because that wasn't the original design of it.
Speaker 4:And so I think, yes, we jokingly say, go to breakthrough, but it's because of the community and the relationships and the conversations that come from a place that can only happen when you put yourself in a risky place to share vulnerably and be honest in the presence of other people and allow them to speak into your life and just relate to your life and join you in this life. Frankly, an amazing gift to us in that it made us get really clear on our promises with each other, on how this could look like. One of the things that, julia, you invited us into is like, hey, guys, what steps? Break off into couples and make a promise to each other about how you're going to make this look. And we did that. We're like, yeah, we nailed it. We got some things down and we realized we were completely off because we really were not clear on what was a true promise, a clear measurable made very big broad broad strokes we're going to, we're going to be intentional, we're going to be connected, all this crap
Speaker 4:right. It's just total BS, like, and it's a good heart, but it's not the answer. It's. What the answer is is like saying every day, I, joe, am going to ask M, how are you feeling? And I'm going to say it just like that, I'm going to shut up, I'm not going to add anything to it, I'm not going to share what I'm feeling, I'm just going to take the time to live into that promise of saying, every day, after dinner or before dinner, whenever that time was that we agreed to I'm going to ask you this question and then M will also do the same thing with me.
Speaker 3:Well, we actually made it even more specific. Leaving Breakthrough, it was that I'm committed to asking him to share.
Speaker 4:Like what did you?
Speaker 3:feel angry about today.
Speaker 4:Yeah, that was big. For me that was huge yeah.
Speaker 3:And for him to ask me like what did you feel today? Like what was the biggest thing that you felt about? That's good, and I think that really was a difference maker for us this year, compared to even just last year was making sure that it was a very specific measure, promise and goal. Walking away instead of like we're committed to connecting more, going to more date nights. It really was like every we're committed to connecting more, going to more date nights. It really was like every day we're going to do this. And have we done it every day? No, there have been days that we've missed, but I think it's something that we both have seen the value in of like okay, when we do that, we feel closer to each other. We more deeply understand each other. We feel closer to each other. We more deeply understand each other. We can even just better understand what actually happened for you during the day, Like um.
Speaker 3:So I think having that as something that we're committed to daily with each other, I think it has created a space that, like, the little things don't get shoved to the back burner to turn into something significantly larger, because we're holding a space for, like, let's talk now and sometimes it's super lighthearted and it's like you know. I felt really glad today about X. Y and Z it's like okay, great. Let's let's watch a show together.
Speaker 3:And then other times it turns into a much deeper conversation and like sharing hard things with each other, of something that that came up that morning at breakfast and there's just a lot of opportunity in that. That has been, I think, really encouraging.
Speaker 4:I think another thing for me that was really helpful was during breakthrough. I remember making a commitment just to hop off social media Cause I would hide myself behind technology like the doom scrolling the. I mean it's fun. Let's be honest, other people's crap is like another person's treasure and I'm going through it and really I'm just hiding behind my own fears and brokenness and I don't want to connect. And to me, for me I'll just speak for me that has been really helpful because I know what my mind was up to in that resource. I'm not saying I'm not trying to shame social media or technology by any stretch. I love it all. But for me I've just realized in this season hey, you know what it's not necessary. And when I'm not, I'm looking at my phone. That means I'm looking at a human that's in my house.
Speaker 3:That's cool too, and she in my house, that's cool too, and she's really pretty and I like her a lot and I would rather actually looking at like what, what am I feeling or what have I been?
Speaker 4:feeling. Yeah, because that, yeah, it covered up the anger for me like I would just I would not acknowledge the anger and the hurt and the sadness that was within me. Um, because who doesn't like watching netflix? At the end of the day, it's pretty amazing. There there's some good shows on right and we are human like that. We like it too, got our shows, I got our hobbies and they're fun to do, so, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's, it's that you know, if I were to weave a line through, what we've in essence talked about is that, um, loneliness, undealt with loneliness leads to apathy, which leads to numbing, finding ways to not feel, and the less I feel, the less I care, and it's easier that it gets easier and easier for the marriage to fall apart and for me to care less that it is falling apart. Yeah, it's our willingness to face the real, honest reality that we are feeling creatures. We are designed for relationship and that we daily are feeling. It's whether we're willing to find a person in our life that we trust to share it with and live in it. In the reality of life with and when you do that with your spouse, you become connected and meeting one another in a way that you care deeply. When something threatens the relationship, even if it's a little look or a little attitude or a little tone, you're like oh, I care about you, I care about this marriage, and that is important to talk about.
Speaker 4:Yep, yep, and you get to experience the love and freedom that I think we were all created for, because I could talk about anything, about anything, and with whoever, with you in that, and that's that is true freedom. Whenever I can just come to you humbly and genuinely and authentically saying I'm struggling or I'm scared or whatever the case may be. I mean the weight that's lifted off. I have, I felt lighter.
Speaker 3:I feel lighter saying that because it's a, it is a radical change in my posture and um well, and I think it it has um built a deeper level of of trust between us to to truly feel like I can be fully honest with you in what I'm feeling Like. Just the other day, I said he apologized for something and I said, well, I still feel really mad towards you and I don't want to forgive you yet and he's like all right, that's okay, yeah, like and it wasn't a bitterness that I said that from, it was like yeah, it makes sense.
Speaker 4:I would be probably a little ticked too, so it's all good.
Speaker 3:You know, like and and we were able to just give that a little more time and then for me to come to him and be like okay, thank you for apologizing. I do, I do forgive you and I'm sorry that it took me so long to forgive you but like to be able to those types of situations used to spiral in and turn into significantly larger fights, instead of like being able to hear each other and hold a space for each other to feel different things and like, even if he's not feeling what I'm expecting him to feel, like that's okay, it's like all right, like I have my, the two of you and your commitment to love and marriage and willingness to share vulnerably the truth of what it looks like behind the scenes.
Speaker 2:So thank you so much and I am so grateful that, um, I think the listeners will get a lot out of this. So awesome.
Speaker 3:Thank you, Julia.
Speaker 4:Thank you for loving us and we love you and really, like we have said before, you have walked with us in many steps of our life and it's a testimony that the work that you're doing is meaningful, it's significant, it's important and it's an honor to see how that is impacting not just the two of us but the four children that we have been entrusted to raise, and that's a transformational legacy, and so we really owe a lot of credit to your care and willingness to walk that with us. So thank you for having us and loving us through the process, absolutely.
Speaker 2:All right guys.