Hey Julia Woods
Join me, Julia Woods, a couples coach and wife of over 3 decades, as I share some of my client's stories and my own so that you can be encouraged, inspired, and gain new results in your marriage.
Hey Julia Woods
On two different paths in the same marriage!
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Join me as Jeff and Melinda, a couple who have navigated the ups and downs of 35 years together, share how they struggled to communicate in ways that created connection. They each had the areas in their lives they focused on and had a hard time finding room for each other. Nine months ago, they realized it was now or never. They decided to start couples coaching, where they discovered transformative tools that helped them create honest and open that helped them start making requests and addressing insecurities that is leading to deeper connection than they have ever experienced before.
Join us as we explore their journey of rediscovering connection and continuous growth in marriage, offering invaluable insights for any couple navigating their own rough seasons.
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https://beautifuloutcome.com/marriage-growth-community
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FAC...
Welcome to hey Julia Woods podcast. I'm your host, julia Woods, founder of Beautiful Outcome, a coaching company focused on helping couples learn to see and understand each other, even in the most difficult conversations. On my podcast, I will share with you the real and raw of the messiness and amazingness of marriage. I'll share with you aspects of my relationship and the couples I coach in a way that you can see yourself and find the tools that you need to build the marriage you long for. Welcome, I am so excited.
Speaker 1:We have a special treat today in Jeff and Melinda, who have been married 35 years and have two married children, and I have just loved getting to coach them. I still get the honor of coaching them and we've been working together for about nine months, I think, and I'm excited for them to share with you a little of their journey and where they have come from in regards to what were the challenges they were facing and how they've worked through those and are continuing to work through those and what they're learning. So I'm excited for you to get to hear a bit of their story. I think you'll resonate a lot with them as people. They're just. I love them. They're just down to earth and that's one of the reasons I am excited for you guys. I shared that you guys have a treat coming, so, without further ado, welcome Jeff and Melinda.
Speaker 2:Thank you, good to be here.
Speaker 1:So you guys have gotten the questions ahead of time, some of the questions that I will be asking. So let's dive into the first one. What has been the hardest season in your marriage?
Speaker 2:one. What has been the hardest season in your marriage?
Speaker 1:I'll go first this time which is very unusual, right.
Speaker 2:But I think I'll go first, because we kind of vary slightly on our timing for rough season.
Speaker 1:And.
Speaker 2:I'm sure that occurs more often than I would think it does, but we're still kind of in a five year time frame where I think it was around year 15. And I think is very slightly. But one of the things when we got to 15 was it just seemed like we were not connecting anymore and that we were really just felt like we were kind of walking two different paths in the same marriage, in the same house, in the same family, and so we kind of decided we would go to a traditional therapist. So we started that in kind of the spring of that year and what that felt like for me was it just felt like we were talking about things that had happened that were that seemed like contempt towards each other, but we never were.
Speaker 2:It didn't feel like I was given any tools to get past it, to like dig into it deeper. What tool could I use to get myself out of that contempt hole and and how could I change my ways going forward so that I showed up in my marriage as a better person? I just felt like it was us elevating our problems, if you will, out loud to somebody else. So it just felt like telling them but not really learning any tools to do that. So, anyway, we, what we started doing was just avoiding all subjects that felt the slightest bit uncomfortable and we just 100% concentrated on being good kids to our parents and being good parents to our kids.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And it is a lot, Jeff. Can I ask Melinda a question?
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely yeah.
Speaker 1:So can you tell, because I think I resonate, I think the listeners will resonate a lot with that. I'd love for you to articulate two things a little deeper. So when you say walking two different paths, can you expand on that a bit and then I'll ask you the next question?
Speaker 2:So what it felt like to me was we were both full-time working parents.
Speaker 2:So, you know, neither of us had the luxury of staying at home with the kiddos and which I know presents a whole new set of issues, right, but I felt like we really really dove into work to kind of fill the time that we thought we would have to deal with things. So we were, I felt like pretty much the best employees on the planet, you know, and we tried to be the best parents on the planet. But at the end of the day, you know, we felt like we should have been trying to be the best couple on the planet and we just filled that time with other things. So, even though we felt like a family to the two of us and, you know, with the, with the boys, I felt like we just were in that same family, in that same house, didn't talk about things that brought us together. So, two different paths, just meaning, you know, really not having anything to do with one another's lives, unless it was, you know, a social network required to go to or something for the kids.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so, so helpful. I think a lot of people resonate with that and it's easy to think that you know, if I can do really good at work and I can do really good with the kids, this will somehow, this marriage thing will somehow work itself out. It's a totally different concept to say let me start with the marriage and then the work and the children have a whole different foundation. You know it's coming out of a different foundation. So I think it's a common thing that we think in marriage, marriage. And I would love, melinda, for you to articulate, if you can like what this hard season which makes sense, going to kind of like two ships passing in the night, what are some of the emotions you remember most feeling?
Speaker 2:Well, I think I went to Jeff so I think at the time you were between jobs and I remember walking into him into the office in the house and I think I remember saying to him I'm drowning in my own sadness. So I guess, feeling incomplete and like like it, like it was, I was working hard at everything but I wasn't giving it my best. I felt like like should have been my best right, because when you're sad you know it's hard to show up for yourself and everybody else in the type of person you want to be yeah, yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
Speaker 1:It's powerful. All right, jeff, what would you describe is the hardest season for you?
Speaker 3:Well, it's interesting because I feel like I missed a lot of important cues that were there, you know, at the 15 years of marriage. So I'm not even sure that I'm fully in touch with what all was transpiring there, although I absolutely subscribe to what Melinda's saying, in that we were putting so much into work and into our family. You know that we weren't giving equal billing to, you know, the marriage, and so for me, it became. It became more pronounced for me at 20 years, and you know I was also changing jobs and looking for work and ultimately, the two opportunities we had was to acquire a move, and one of the things that we had talked about early on, when we had children, is how important it would be for them to be able to get through, you know, the high school years, you know all things, because melinda was an air force and she she calls it and was, uh, constantly moving every couple of years and and uh, so one that was a struggle to think about, because at the time, uh, the boys were in in high school, which I know is a tough time to make that kind of move, and so I ended up taking a job that was still within traveling distance, but I went and got like an apartment and worked remotely for about well, it ended up being close to nine months, and worked remotely for about well, it ended up being close to nine months.
Speaker 3:And that was really hard because one, what wasn't working between the two of us continued to not work and became more pronounced. And then also, on top of that, not being, you know, there day to day to be part of the lives of the boys, that was really tough. Being, you know, there day to day to be part of the lives of the boys, that was really tough, let alone the training. I've been in transition one time before that. And then this one was tough. It was a downsizing and didn't go quite as I had hoped and planned. I've been there almost I guess it was eight plus years, so there was also that too and kind of coming to grips in terms with changes in the career as well. So it was really all those factors that that made me feel like at that time time that was getting really really tough. And unfortunately, the succeeding few years there were more changes from a work standpoint, so that just kind of continued to exacerbate things, you know, for the succeeding years.
Speaker 1:So what were you feeling during that season, Like what were some of the things you felt and thought, Jeff?
Speaker 3:Well, there was definitely insecurity, you know, around my ability to have gainful employment and be able to provide for the family. I mean that's. I mean you're, you know, trying to, you know provide for, you know activities and so forth, you know for the boys and and obviously you know, keep a roof over our head and so forth. And and then just even a deeper insecurity about, you know, myself and my ability to contribute and you know a sense of self-worth, I guess, and so you know, pretty low self-esteem during that time and a sense of insecurity around being, you know, having something steady to be able to provide for the family.
Speaker 1:What do you recall you and Melinda's interactions being like in that season, when you were going through that?
Speaker 3:Well, I recall two things. On the funny side, the office was sort of an open niche that was on the second level and I was. I don't know that I was on an interview, but maybe I was talking to a prospective employer and she was on the phone downstairs and the sound just wafted up. And so after I got off or maybe I was still on the call I went over to the balcony and I did the shush signal to Melinda and, needless to say, I won't be doing that anytime soon.
Speaker 3:You haven't done that again in the next 20 years. So I guess I had forgotten that I was in her domicile. So, but aside from that, you know, I felt like she was supportive. We didn't talk a lot, I didn't share a lot of what that. You know what that journey was, as I was looking for work. I mean, she knew what I was doing and knew that was my new job, was looking for work and transition, but we really didn't talk about it and I most definitely did not talk about feeling, you know, insecure or having low self-esteem. That just wasn't something that, um, was in my DNA yeah, but also Julia.
Speaker 2:I didn't ask, so you know yeah yeah, the two separate the two separate paths makes more sense.
Speaker 1:You were each living your own suffering, your own loneliness, your own sadness, and not connecting about it not having a friend. Or obviously you probably had friends but not each other, and that's hard.
Speaker 2:Yeah it's hard. Yeah, it is hard. It's hard in the moment, but it's almost harder to look back as intelligent adults that have been married for 35 years.
Speaker 3:I dropped the ball.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that we didn't we didn't, you know, take that opportunity. You know, and I think that's why things like the podcast and our lessons and stuff are we're hopeful for the future and then, you know, hoping that you know we can be better examples for our children.
Speaker 1:Before we dive deeper into today's episode, I want to talk to you about something super exciting. It's a game changer really. To have the relationship you long for, you must take responsibility for yourself and who you are being, moment by moment. It's not about what your spouse needs to change. It's about you taking control of the only thing you can control, which is you. Control of the only thing you can control, which is you. That's the truth that nobody's talking about when they talk about marriage. But I am inside the Marriage Growth Community where I will help you take responsibility for your ability to lead conversations with your spouse to love and connection, so you can have the marriage you dreamed of when you first fell in love. At the very first link in the show notes, you can grab my marriage growth community and that's really going to help. I know that because it's based on the same principles. I've used to coach this couple and hundreds of other couples to marriage success over the last nine years. So grab marriage growth community at the top of the show notes. Okay, back to the show, all right.
Speaker 1:So, speaking of the hope that you have and what's different now, the two of you reached out to me about nine months ago and we started coaching, and part of coaching is doing Marriage Thrive. So you've been working through that and in that you've been learning a lot of what I call transformational tools, things that are really about helping you learn to communicate through some of the not well communicate through challenges, and also do the personal work of working on yourself, healing that contempt. Do the personal work of working on yourself, healing that contempt. You know, looking at where, like you said a few minutes ago, melinda, like while Jeff wasn't talking to you, you also weren't asking questions about what he was feeling or thinking. So that's an example of taking personal responsibility. So, as you guys have learned what you've or gained, what you've gained thus far, what would you say is the transformational tool that you most wish you had during this, between that 15 and 20 year span of being two people on different paths within the same marriage?
Speaker 3:I can't distill it to one, so unfortunately you're going to hear more than one tool. One is it challenged paradigms for me and kind of deep-rooted paradigms. So one of the things that you had said is that tolerance is the silent hater, that that would give me permission to basically punish Melinda, if you will, because she wasn't meeting my needs, even though what was really happening is I wasn't making requests around my needs and tolerance I always thought was a great trait and considered it to be one of my prime character traits, only to learn that it was actually probably the worst perpetrator in in estranging, you know, our relationship. And so that was that was really important breakthrough for me and that went hand in glove with understanding all of the levels and types of dishonesty. So I've always thought about dishonesty as sort of the supreme breach right of trust.
Speaker 3:But I was being dishonest multiple times in the course of every day and not one. Being true to my feelings and my needs and wants and then being able to articulate that in a way that was constructive to our relationship and would allow me to reconcile certain needs and wants. So I mean, those were really, I think, the kind of the central elements, and all of that then sprung into really doing the work in my own backyard right, it was really understanding what were those tendencies and modus operandi and biases that I had operandi and biases that I had and to begin to rethink those and whether those were really constructive to my relationship versus destructive to the relationship.
Speaker 1:Yeah, powerful and there's a lot in there. So I want to just slow that down for a minute because I think the listeners will really can really connect with this because, like you said, I thought I was a very honest person and then, when I started doing this work, I'm like wow, I didn't realize how much as humans, we are the best deceivers of ourselves and we lie every day. We just don't recognize it. I was just reading something from Jordan Peterson today where he was talking about there's two kinds of lies. There's commission lies, where we say something we know to not be true, and then there's omission lies, where we say what we think the other person wants to hear, or we omit saying what we know to be true for ourselves.
Speaker 1:But you know, we make up all kinds of stories that they can't handle the truth and all these things right. Or I'm better off keeping the peace and tolerate this and I'll be just such a wonderful spouse because I, you know, I didn't rock the boat, as we like to pride ourselves in. But what we're doing is we're creating a lie. The other person is married to a lie, and that has major consequences Because, while you may not talk about it, you get it. You just feel like you just can't trust each other Because you know what's being spoken is not being communicated, right, your actions speak louder than the words. So the other person can see you're saying one thing, but I'm feeling something different and I'm asking and you're not telling. So it's just better to not trust you.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:And the one who's doing the most well. We're all dishonest, so we're both being dishonest, but we each develop our own stories. We're all dishonest, so we're both being dishonest, but we each develop our own stories. Like you said, is you know? We tell ourselves that to make a request would be too much, or it wouldn't be received, or it you know, whatever. And we're we're creating a very empty relationship that has a very weak foundation. The only foundation that will really hold a marriage is honesty.
Speaker 1:And it's the most powerful thing that we have to have a relationship that's founded on honesty. If you're honest, pretty much everything else can work itself out. When you're not honest. It begins to move into secrecy, and then we start living two very hidden lives from each other, and that's when all hell starts breaking loose.
Speaker 3:Right, that's exactly right yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that was Jeff and I's story as well. So the tools I hear you talking about, jeff, are making a request and honesty, and those are hugely powerful.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:What tools do you wish you had had, melinda?
Speaker 2:Well, um so, uh, growing up military, like Jeff mentioned earlier um, there were really no gray areas, because in the military you either do it right or you do it wrong, or you do it honestly or you do it with a lie, or I mean there was no gray area between even working through things, between black and white. So what I came into the marriage with was basically thinking in my own head. My story was that I knew what was right and what was wrong and I didn't really have the capacity to have discussions around how to work through things if they were in that gray area. So for me, immediately it was working in my own backyard, because I had never even peeked over the fence, because I was. I knew what was black and I knew what was white according to my upbringing. And you know according to my upbringing and you know when my eyes were open to working in my backyard with things like compassion and things like trust and things like honesty. Then at the end of the day, you know, you see that, oh, wow, that rule has many layers, right, because it's not white and black. There are gray areas for you to work on, things that allow you to be human and be that same kind, nice person you're trying to be, but opening up to others and allowing you know relationships that you can, you know, that can evolve and not just, oh well, I'm done. That didn't work for me.
Speaker 2:So I mean, I think I've said to you in the past I'm not a hundred percent sure we would be married if Jeff weren't so kind. Because you know he was, and even though for him, when you heard in his description of himself about thinking tolerance was the end, all and be all he just had, I just felt like he just had a little confusion between tolerance and kindness, right. So he thought, by tolerating things, tolerance and kindness, right. So he thought, by tolerating things, he was being the kindest person that he could to tolerate bad behavior from somebody in our lives was, you know, him being kind and seeing the good in that person. So I don't, I don't think he was overly tolerant, I just think he was trying to be kind and so, and so he did that a lot in our marriage. You know where I would have probably been like nope, that's not acceptable, you know. So working in my own backyard has to be the biggest and best tool for me, because, because I wasn't right.
Speaker 1:Well, it's beautiful, opposites attract. So, as far as you were on the black and white, which has benefits, and you know, in a moral standpoint, in is well, tolerance is. There are moments where tolerance works and there's a lot of moments, especially in a marriage, where it hides dishonesty really well, and you begin to not know each other because you don't know who's really there. And you know we you each have mentioned and I just want to slow this down for the listener we have our stories right. So, jeff, what you learned growing up was tolerance is best, and you had all your stories of why that is the best, right. It's the way you kind, it's the way to you know, accept others, it's it's. We have all these stories. And for you, you had all your stories. Well, if we, the way to you know, accept others, it's, it's, we have all these stories.
Speaker 1:and for you that you had all your stories. Well, if we don't, you know, if it's not black and white, someone's gonna die, and you know I mean it right. So it's not by chance. The two of you were attracted to each other because there's beauty in both and you're opposite on each, and there's a balance in both, that both of you can learn and grow from each other. But often in marriage we don't do that. We just think my way is the right way and the other person is the wrong way, and we miss the growth opportunity for both of us.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Which brings us to what you said about backyard. So I want to make sure for the listeners they understand what that means, and so it's an analogy that I use in regards to I see a marriage as a neighborhood and the spouses are neighbors, with each of you having your own fenced in backyard. And in your fenced in backyard is your beliefs, your thoughts, your attitudes, your reactions and responses, your bitterness, your resentment. And what we often do, because it's the easiest to do is stand at the fence, at our fence, looking into our spouse's backyard, telling them everything they're doing, that they should be doing differently or what's wrong over there. And whether we tell them or we just tolerate it, we're still standing at the fence, looking and judging and criticizing and taking offense.
Speaker 1:And so the first step we must do if we want to work on a marriage is learn how to get firmly planted in our own backyard and looking at our beliefs, our thoughts, our reactions, our responses, because our yard is the only one we have the power to do anything in, and it's where the beautiful we begin to become authentic, we begin to integrate our shadow and our light, where we can begin to see the positives and the negatives about each thing that we're choosing and each thing that we're thinking and believing.
Speaker 1:And then when you're growing your backyard, you're growing the garden you want in your backyard. It becomes a beautiful part of the neighborhood and the marriage gets more beautiful as each person works in their own backyard and it's actually what allows certain couples, when both spouses aren't ready to do the work at the same time. If one spouse will start beautifying their backyard, the marriage starts improving and often it invites the other spouse to wind up starting to do the work. So it is the only way I know how to help couples is let's get started with working in your backyard, because that's where you have power and that's what's going to reveal where you need to set boundaries, where you're tolerating things you don't, that aren't healthy to be tolerating, where you're, you know, stuck in black and white, and it's actually not that black and white. We can only see those things when we're in our own backyard.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1:So I love these tools that you guys are finding to be valuable. So you said these are the tools you most wish you had in this really hard season. So I'd love to hear from each of you what difference in this hard season, when you were two different paths in the same marriage, what difference would those tools have made for each of you?
Speaker 2:So whoever wants to go first Jeff, your tools of making requests and honesty, and Melinda, your tools of working in your own backyard well, I would say that for me, if I had not, if I had been in my own backyard and working on all the tools that I've been given in general because I can't I can't name one tool that you've given us that we haven't used but if I had been in my own backyard with those tools and when I peeked over the fence I would have been less judgmental.
Speaker 2:It would not have come out that I would have been a better listener. I would have been asking for what I needed, but instead what I felt like I was doing was I was telling Jeff what to do to meet my needs. So that was really an eye opener for me too. So I, if I had had the ability to see myself for what I was bringing to the table, I would have been less judgmental. And then, working on myself, I would have just showed up as as a person that had all those traits that they had worked on. Personality issues from the past was being, you know, just kind of creating the scenario in my head, because when you don't have conversation to speak of with your spouse, then you kind of I would create those conversations in my head where I wanted to see how I thought it would come out in my head, based on what I thought his responses were.
Speaker 2:So, all of that was kind of judgment of where the conversation would go and how it would end up, but it was just creating that in my head, when in reality, if we had just had the conversation, I think we would have been fine, because I think in like our second or third call, you even said to us that the one thing that you admired about us as a couple when we very first started was that we did have grace for each other. You know we were respectful of one another, you know so.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and just to highlight that, like when you guys came to me nine months ago, you pretty much weren't like a part of the marriage growth program is that you need to have a play and chat to a 30 minute play and chat time every week, and both of you I'll let you describe your reaction to that but you were both like um, I don't think that's going gonna work so well. So can you share just a little bit about what? What occurred for you when you thought about just having a 30 minute conversation on a weekly basis?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I was mortified, not that I haven't talked to my wife for 30 minutes about something, but to have the type of conversation that we were intending to do and what we needed. Yeah, I was mortified. So, and honestly, for several months, you know, I went into those conversations with trepidation, you know, but ultimately, you know, I could see what the power of those conversations were. And I, you know, I've started a lot of work in my own backyard, literally from our first call. Uh, uh, you, you threw a gauntlet down and it, uh, it was one that I reluctantly picked up but knew I had to. So it just was a tough start and thankfully I've gotten a lot better at those conversations, being more honest in those conversations, and now it's just, I mean, we don't even bat an eye, we structure that time. We even sometimes find ourselves having a chat that we hadn't even structured because that's what should be happening in the moment, you know.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, oh, I was just going to say. When we saw your post on Instagram about the couple that had just had a 90 minute conversation who weren't they weren't able to do the 30 minute at the beginning we raised our hand because we knew that was us and we I sent the post to all the children and and you know we haven't really had a discussion with them yet.
Speaker 2:They're in different States, but but the funny thing was was then we kind of were talking to ourselves like the night after so and said do you think it's weird that our kids don't know or that our kids are finding out that we don't talk? Because we do talk but the subject always ended with always ended up on our parents or our children or getting together with our children or something about the neighborhood. It just was never personal about our lives individually. So that was the difference, about how, when we haven't had a 90 minute conversation in forever you know that sounds like you know we have a silent home but it was just always about helping someone else, you know.
Speaker 1:Exactly. And that's so helpful because, jeff, when you said earlier, like the kinds of conversations you were asking us to have, like it's as simple as you know, can you tell me what you're learning this week, right? Like it's to some people that's like, oh my goodness, I could not ask my spouse that question. And to other people, you know that's that's a pretty easy question. So it's very powerful to see what things get revealed in each of us. That's why our backyard is so important, because we see the world very, in a very skewed way, but we think we're seeing it fully, and that's the importance of the backyard work. So, jeff, what difference do you think that honesty and making requests would have made for you in this years, 15 to 20, in your marriage?
Speaker 3:Oh, it would have made a huge difference, you know, particularly, I mean, I just sealed off my feelings and I probably did that for a myriad of reasons. But I also, you know, I made decisions on Melinda's behalf which was not the right thing about what she was or wasn't, you know, because I was struggling with low self-esteem and, you know, a sense of insecurity. You know I was seeking affirmation from others and you know I just wouldn't. I wouldn't have done that. I would have done that with my spouse and I just I didn't allow her that opportunity, which wasn't fair to me and wasn't fair to her certainly, didn't allow her that opportunity, which wasn't fair to me and wasn't fair to her certainly. So it would have made a profound difference. I'm certain, if I had used that tool set what I can't believe 15 years ago, so, and to her point 20.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm, yeah, yeah. So what difference is it making? What difference are these two tools or, for you, jeff, two tools and for you, melinda, this one tool that we've highlighted? What difference is it making now, other than I know earlier you mentioned Melinda, you went from being able to not being able to have a 30 minute conversation to then, a few weeks ago, you shared with me on a coaching call, the exciting news that you'd had your couple's connection turned into a 90 minute conversation. What other difference are these making for you currently, in your today situation today?
Speaker 2:Well before I would show up accusatory. So, first of all, I would create that whole racket in my head where, you know, I knew how this conversation was going to be, because I was not happy with an action that I had a gut feeling about, because we weren't really talking, so I wasn't getting information coming from a black and white background. I always, I always jump to worst case scenario, because I always think I can cure my worst case scenario because it's probably going to be better, right, like it won't be as bad as I'm making it out to be. So, at least in my head.
Speaker 2:If I was going in and saying this is a conversation we need to have because I, you know, am not happy with this, and you know, then at the end of the day that just worked me up for no reason, instead of if I had gone to Jeff and used the curiosity questions you know the things that you taught us how did ask a lot of questions that night, but the conversation just felt so different. It was like the first one we'd had where I felt like it was really almost outside of our old selves you know, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:And so, just in connecting for the listeners, backyard work in what you just shared was first, you had to recognize you were accusing. Second, in your backyard, you needed to get honest with yourself about what did you want. What outcome did you want? You could sit and accuse him, you could stay in judgment, but you knew the evening wasn't going to go well. And the other thing that you cultivated in your backyard was what questions did you want to ask him to discover what you didn't know? You didn't know. This is an example of how that working in your own backyard allows you to create the emotional intimacy that the two of you thought when you started nine months ago was pretty impossible to experience emotional intimacy, and we've just started scratching the surface as to what's available with it.
Speaker 1:But it takes you doing that work in your backyard to be able to cultivate that.
Speaker 2:Right, it definitely does, because you just show up as such a different person you know, as the person that before something happens. That's the person. You want to be right, you want to be kind, you want to be loving, you want to be there for people. You want to. You know, just show up for everybody. But you can't do that until you do the work, because you're not showing up that way for yourself, it's not going to show in anything you do.
Speaker 1:Exactly yeah, powerful Jeff. What difference is it making? What difference is honesty and making requests, making for you now?
Speaker 3:Well, my, my bias, sort of back to the tolerance and kindness was, you know, even to just sort of like appease Melinda, and what I realized is that still, I wasn't being honest to myself about my needs and wants. And so I'm moving past the appeasement phase and moving more to, you know, understanding what her needs and wants are, but also being clear about my needs and wants and then having a confidence that we're going to be able to arrive at a resolution or a solution that meets, that best meets the needs of both of us, right, that we can actually we can do that together, whereas, you know, in the past I would have been afraid that I wasn't going to find a resolve right, and so I would just lean into what she was asking and then realized, well, that I'm not really fully meeting my needs and wants in that. So I've gotten I think I've gotten better at doing that.
Speaker 2:Definitely. And I mean it was also a chore for him, because when he is appeasing me and what he thinks I need because he wasn't asking and I wasn't telling then when he tries to appease me telling, then when he tries to appease me, he's saying what he thinks I want to hear, but then he is letting himself and me down because it's an unrealistic expectation. I mean it truly is, and it shows itself in the smallest of things. It's not just really huge things, it's just everyday things. And so every time something like that happened, either way and on both of our sides, I just felt like in between those two paths even further, was this wall of contempt of stone. It was just like we were building this wall with these little stones of contempt and it just kept getting higher and higher and higher. And after 35 years I mean I think I said to you in the first call I'm not sure I want to be here I mean, after 35 years, to knock that wall down it just seems like an impossible task, but it really isn't.
Speaker 3:No.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's beautiful and in just nine months, right, the connection you guys are having, like would you say, what would you say is different in the connection you have now, nine months into this process, versus the connection you have when you first got married, like, how would you describe it differently?
Speaker 3:um well it's, it's, I mean, uh, I love the language of seasons, right, and it and I think, at least for me, there was.
Speaker 3:Well, you know, how do we get back to that relationship that we had, you know, as honeymooners, and and realizing that that that't necessarily the expression of our best marriage or our best relationship today, and so I think one, you know, kind of going back to those paradigms, right, it's not romanticizing about what was you know in the first five years of our marriage, but looking at what can it be today, and it can be much richer. I'm seeing the possibilities of a different and much richer kind of marriage you know today than what was you know even in our honeymoon phase five years ago. So, and that's the curiosity, right, you know being curious about one another again, which is probably the thing that we had when we first got married. Right, there's a lot of curiosity, and so then, as you get to live with somebody, then that curiosity starts to wane, and so that's really the big piece is, I think we're going back to being curious about each other and and having a dialogue that's really grounded in that curiosity. So yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, when we were a little older, when we got married back in the eighties you know kind of how the kids are getting married now like I was 27, he was 30. So we were a little older than the age the kiddos were back then getting married. You know, like I was 27, he was 30. So we were a little older than the age the kiddos were back then getting married. You know we were kind of, you know, but in doing that, you know, I didn't feel like it was, you know, the white knight or the knight on the white horse or whatever the saying is. I didn't feel like you know that, like it was super honeymoon stage. But you know there were definitely. I think curiosity is probably the best definition. I think Jeff said it best.
Speaker 1:So we don't know. We sit behind our sit behind our stories and think that we're alone and that our spouse is the only one who's doing these kind of things and we're the only one to feel these, this sadness and this misery. And the truth is that it's really not that different. What's inside of our homes is not that different. Yes, the level of suffering can be greater, but the suffering keeps increasing as we keep avoiding the suffering. And that's really what I help couples do and spouses is learn to face the suffering.
Speaker 1:It's not easy, but it's way easier than letting the suffering get worse, and it's what grows us. It grows our character, and that's you know. You often hear couples say well, you know, I want to pull out the best version of you. Well, the way we do that is we have the uncomfortable conversations. That's that's how that happens, is we grow the parts of ourselves. We acknowledge the parts of ourselves that we'd rather not admit are there, and once you admit it, it's not as big a deal and you actually can do something with it, rather than it just haunt you and consume you as to how terrible this is about you.
Speaker 1:Which leads to a shame, and you know, most couples have a lot of shame in their own relationship and in between each other, and so it's it's marriage miracles. They're amazing. They keep happening every day in the work that I get to do, and you guys are definitely one of those marriage miracles, and I'm just so honored to get to walk with you and your story inspires my story, and I'm just so, so grateful for all that you guys have taught me and continue to teach me, and I just really appreciate both of you.
Speaker 2:Well, thank you we appreciate you and we are so grateful that we all found each other Absolutely.
Speaker 1:All right, guys, thanks so much. That's going to do it for this episode of hey, julia Woods. Now I have a quick favor to ask of you If you've ever gotten any value from this podcast and you haven't already, please leave us a five-star rating and a quick review in the app that you're using to listen right now. It just takes a couple seconds, but it really goes a long way in helping us to share even more valuable marriage growth tips and interviews here. This episode shares the power of what can happen when a spouse takes responsibility for who they are being. One conversation at a time, and if you want the marriage that you long for, click that first link in the show notes and this will take you straight to the resource that's going to solve that for you. I can't wait to connect with you inside my membership, where you can get the support you need to grow the marriage you long for 24-7. All right, that's going to do it for the show. My name is Julia Woods. I'll talk to you next time.